happythoughts 0 #26 January 28, 2005 From the article: QuoteNot so in France, where four prisoners from the U.S. naval base were arrested as soon as they arrived home in July, and haven't been heard from since. Under French law, they could remain locked up for as long as three years while authorities decide whether to put them on trial QuoteWhile other Western countries debate the proper balance between security and individual rights, France has experienced scant public dissent over tactics that would be controversial, if not illegal, in the United States and some other countries. QuoteFrance has embraced a law enforcement strategy that relies heavily on preemptive arrests, ethnic profiling and an efficient domestic intelligence-gathering network. French anti-terrorism prosecutors and investigators are among the most powerful in Europe, backed by laws that allow them to interrogate suspects for days without interference from defense attorneys. Ironic? QuoteThe nation pursues such policies at a time when France has become well known in the world for criticizing the United States for holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo without normal judicial protections. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
op5e 0 #27 January 28, 2005 Another way of dealing with (suspected) terrorists. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12074892-38196,00.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #28 January 28, 2005 I think it is quite Ironic.... That is why I started the thread. Pot meet the Kettle... Kettle, this is Pot!!! I find the criticism that the US gets a bit strange. Then again, the law in France is also Guilty until proven innocent!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #29 January 28, 2005 So basically your arguement is that the United States' blatant disregard for human rights and civil liberties is fine because a country which criticized its illegal invasion of Iraq is suffering under similarly unjust laws. Hmm, I see your point, relativism can solve any moral dilemna.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #30 January 28, 2005 news Just in !!! French Terror Alert AP and UPI reported that the French Government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from "run" to "hide." The only two higher levels in France are "surrender" and "collaborate." The rise in the terror alert level was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed one of France's white flag factories, thus totally disabling their military Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #31 January 28, 2005 QuoteSo basically your arguement is that the United States' blatant disregard for human rights and civil liberties is fine because a country which criticized its illegal invasion of Iraq is suffering under similarly unjust laws. Hmm, I see your point, relativism can solve any moral dilemna. Is that my argument genius? I for one do NOT believe that the United States' blatantly disregards human rights and civil liberties... Maybe you do, but that is why you are in Canada and I am here !!! The USA is the becon of freedom in this world, and if you don't think so, I can't help you!!! Your spinning is making me nauseous, can you please stop. It is people like yourself who have no point, and instead try to bend comments and facts to have some meaning which support your fanatism that really make me hate stupid people!!! Do you have nothing better to do than attempt to hijack this thread... To put words in peoples mouths, because of pent up anger you have.... Just repeat after me... "It's not your fault!" "It's not your fault!" "It's not your fault!" "It's not your fault!" "It's not your fault!" Yes, this will get me banned, but it is worth it.... Relax man. Take a deep breath Count to 10!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #32 January 28, 2005 QuoteThen again, the law in France is also Guilty until proven innocent!!! That is only in regards to the burden of proof in front of the court. It does not make a difference as to how a suspect is being treated. Besides, the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is a pretty misunderstood and mis-used concept. It actually translates into "innocent" people being jailed by the thousand on a daily basis if you take it to the letter... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #33 January 28, 2005 QuoteI for one do NOT believe that the United States' blatantly disregards human rights and civil liberties... Maybe you do, but that is why you are in Canada and I am here !!! It's quite obvious you live in a different reality then the rest of the world Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #34 January 28, 2005 QuoteYes, this will get me banned, but it is worth it.... Why not just send them an insulting PM like you just did to me.........oh wait that might require thinking Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #35 January 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes, this will get me banned, but it is worth it.... Why not just send them an insulting PM like you just did to me.........oh wait that might require thinking An insulting Message is perfectly Legal on the Dropzone board... They call the Private Messages for a Reason!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #36 January 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteI for one do NOT believe that the United States' blatantly disregards human rights and civil liberties... Maybe you do, but that is why you are in Canada and I am here !!! It's quite obvious you live in a different reality then the rest of the world You don't like the US???? You think other countries are better when it comes to human rights and civil liberties... move there then.... I won't shed a tear ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflake 0 #37 January 28, 2005 You really do love to hear the sound of your voice ......Ok I'll play Quote In Reply To Quote Yes, this will get me banned, but it is worth it.... Why not just send them an insulting PM like you just did to me.........oh wait that might require thinking An insulting Message is perfectly Legal on the Dropzone board... They call the Private Messages for a Reason!!!! I didn't say insulting someone in a PM was illegal. I suggested that instead of taking the chance of getting banned you could send them a PM like you did to me. I guess that wasn't clear enough for you. Ain't it a bitch when you actually have to use your brain? any thoughts I had of dropping you from my entertainment crew have been banished.....you just might get the headline slot .......Awesome stuff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #38 January 28, 2005 Uh... Can we refocus and resume the ever so useful French bashing please? "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #39 January 28, 2005 One of the big logical failures in any argument is the "purist" position. The basis is that you can't discuss a problem unless you, and the group to which you belong, has never committed a similar act. Therefore, until the US is completely free of some flaw (committed currently or in the last 200 years), Americans are not allowed to discuss the actions of other countries for exactly the same failings that they criticize the US. People seem to be criticizing the US for the detainees at Gtmo, but seem reluctant to discuss the same problem in another country. The amazing thing is that some of the actions would be totally illegal in the US, but it somehow ok for another country to do so and expect no discussion of it. The "you did it first" or the "what about this other issue" posts are the first sign of a re-direct away from any meaningful discourse on a topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #40 January 28, 2005 >Yes, this will get me banned, but it is worth it.... If you say so. Note to everyone else - doing something that constitutes a personal attack may get you a warning first, especially if it's just over the line. Intentionally launching on a tirade that you _know_ is over the line will get you banned a lot faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 January 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteThen again, the law in France is also Guilty until proven innocent!!! That is only in regards to the burden of proof in front of the court. It does not make a difference as to how a suspect is being treated. Besides, the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is a pretty misunderstood and mis-used concept. It actually translates into "innocent" people being jailed by the thousand on a daily basis if you take it to the letter... I think you need to expand on that a bit - it sounds like doublespeak to me. "We assumed the creep was guilty, but it didn't really make a difference." And I have no idea why presuming innocence translates to more people being falsely jailed than otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #42 January 28, 2005 QuoteI find it strange that there has been so much criticism of the USA from Europe over our detainies in GITMO. It draws criticism simply because locking people up without a trial appears to go against the ideals that the USA holds so highly. It's not just France that is also doing this, in the UK there are detainees in Belmarsh prison that are being held without charge. (Although I think they are free to go if they leave the UK. (But that may be bollocks)) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3714864.stm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #43 January 28, 2005 QuoteI think you need to expand on that a bit - it sounds like doublespeak to me. Under the current French Constitution, someone is innocent until proven guilty. Some people still refer to the old Napoleonic Civil Code of Laws (dating from the early 19th Century), where the burden of proof was on the accused as to his/her innocence, not the prosecution. Why people still refer to this system on forums as being used in France? No idea. But today, France does operate under the "innocent until proven guilty" system. Now, the lack of political independance that French DAs suffer from is to me a much bigger issue than some of the "French" issues other people on this forum may bitch and moan about. My reference to "innocents" being jailed was purely on semantics: if someone is accused of being a serial murderer, and is jailed without bail until trial, it essentially amounts to jailing an innocent... I am certainly not criticizing this procedure, merely pointing out that the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" is not always as relevant as it may seem. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #44 January 28, 2005 QuoteYour spinning is making me nauseous, can you please stop. Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. -Einstein QuoteIt is people like yourself who have no point, and instead try to bend comments and facts to have some meaning which support your fanatism that really make me hate stupid people!!! It's not me who needs to calm down my friend QuoteThe USA is the becon of freedom in this world, and if you don't think so, I can't help you!!! I wasn't asking for your help, and while I don't really appreciate your impolite personal comments and assumptions, your outburst reassures me that I'm on the right track. I've noticed that people who refuse to discuss these issues rationally will often resort to character attacks to make up for a lack of substantial arguement. While calling me names does make me grin a bit, I'd still prefer if you'd show me enough respect to discredit my ideas instead of my person.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #45 January 29, 2005 LOL I love it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
