EricTheRed 0 #1 December 7, 2004 Korea Hong Kong-China Finland Japan New Zealand Macao-China Australia Liechtenstein Canada Belgium Switzerland Netherlands France Denmark Czech Republic Germany Sweden Austria Iceland Hungary Ireland Luxembourg Slovak Republic Norway Poland Latvia Spain Russian Federation Have in common? They all are better at educating their children in how to solve problems. http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/47/34011082.xlsillegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 December 7, 2004 Funny, I saw that list and thought "all wish they were a true superpower but can't be?" --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #3 December 7, 2004 That would probably fit as well. Here's the rest of the rankings: Math - 24th Reading - 14th Science - 18th Problem solving - 25th Personally I'm embarrased that we have worse schools than Latvia.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 December 7, 2004 Well, honestly, I don't put much stock in these tests. I feel like they're skewed for an agenda. I would worry more about what you see locally, drop outs, etc and try to help that problem first before looking out and seeing others.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #5 December 7, 2004 Dave, I do look at what I see locally and it does worry me. I have several school districts that I service and most are really hurting. They have had to cut back on school days, classes offered, equipment and maintenance, classified and non-classified staff, and have dramatically increased class sizes in many cases. Yes there are drop outs, drug users and gangs also. I have seen the same problems in schools in Oregon, Washington, Texas and North Carolina. I haven't any direct experiance with other states but I infer from the current national dialog that there are problems in the other states as well. The stats may be baised against us but it's pretty damn hard for me to imagine a test that could be biased in favor of Luxemberg that we shouldn't be able to do better on than Hong Kong. If we got our ass handed to us this thoroughly in the Olympics, there would be more outrage. this we just say - oh, it must be all those dumb kids in XXX that are skewing the sample. We weren't in the top 10 in a single category (we did however rank near the top in the percentage of students that scored lowest on these apptitude tests.) QuoteAt the other end of the scale, over a quarter of students are not proficient beyond Level 1 in Italy, Portugal and the United States, over a third in Greece and over half in Mexico and Turkeyillegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 December 7, 2004 That's my point. Instead of looking outside the US for examples, we should be worrying about the growing problems here first, fix them then look outward.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #7 December 7, 2004 QuoteInstead of looking outside the US for examples, we should be worrying about the growing problems here first, fix them then look outward. Why wouldn't you want to look outside the US for examples of how to do it right? If you ain't doing something right and someone else is its often easier to ask them how they do it than to start from scratch. (I'm not saying that the US system ain't right, its just a general thought)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 December 7, 2004 QuoteWhy wouldn't you want to look outside the US for examples of how to do it right? If you ain't doing something right and someone else is its often easier to ask them how they do it than to start from scratch. Because I think if you tried to make American kids work in a Japanese school system, there'd be more shootings.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #9 December 7, 2004 Here in the USA we live in a society that allowes us the ability to succeed, or fall by the wayside. The choice is yours.... Learning takes more than passively going to school. It takes a desire to self educate and dreams of becoming successful. Many of here are products of dedication and success, many are not. Life and learning are what you make of it. Everything is a choice. What do you want for your kids? If you want them to be successful then you will send them to a private school, you will be active in their life and their schooling and you will make sure they do what they need to in order to have the tools to be successful. From there, it is their choice of whether or not they will succeed. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #10 December 7, 2004 QuoteBecause I think if you tried to make American kids work in a Japanese school system, there'd be more shootings Couldn't they use swords instead? Man Japanese kids are weird, its like they're trying to catch up on 50 years of teenage rebellion in one generation. Teddy boys, rockers and mods with punks, disco and grunge type people all in the same place. Still incredibly polite thoughDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,141 #11 December 7, 2004 QuoteBecause I think if you tried to make American kids work in a Japanese school system, there'd be more shootings. How about the Canadian or Finnish school system? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #12 December 7, 2004 Maybe we could just take all the 6 year olds and toss 'em in a pit with dogs and let them fight for their food. The ones that are tough enough and smart enough to live get to come out, the rest just get eaten. It would work. Just depends on what kind of society you want.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #13 December 7, 2004 QuoteFunny, I saw that list and thought "all wish they were a true superpower but can't be?" The US will not remain a superpower for long if it allows the standard of education of its citizens to fall (further) behind other countries. WE are already seeing the effects in outsourcing of IT jobs. The economy of the country will not be sustained by having just a small well educated elite as storm77 seems to suggest.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #14 December 7, 2004 QuoteMaybe we could just take all the 6 year olds and toss 'em in a pit with dogs and let them fight for their food. The ones that are tough enough and smart enough to live get to come out, the rest just get eaten. It would work. Just depends on what kind of society you want. I think that is is a bit far off from what I was saying and somewhat unjustified. We live in a Capitalist society that runs on the notion of "Survival of the fittest" to some degree. If everything were equal and everyone had the some chances then this would be communism/socialism. It is not. As a parent, you need to take an active role in the education of your children. You can NOT expect that school and learning will passively enter your kids brain or that school is a place for your kid just to be babysat for 8hrs a day. Kids will fail, and though some kids can turn it around, it is quite obvious early in life who has a better chance at being successful. It is not the job of the Government, Federal, State or Local to ensure that your kid will be successful. It is your job as a parent.... If your school system is failing there are many options: 1) Elect a new School board 2) Get the kid in a different school 3) Get a tutor 4) Use the public library to suppliment your kids education. 5) Most importantly, BE INVOLVED in their education!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #15 December 7, 2004 Kallend, Once again, I direct you to this link: Clicky--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteMaybe we could just take all the 6 year olds and toss 'em in a pit with dogs I think that is is a bit far off from what I was saying and somewhat unjustified.... !! Now hold on a sec. Another benefit of Eric's idea is it could also help breed tougher dogs too. If we keep letting "the left" (insert stereotype here) education agenda dumb down the kids, we'll need smarter and stronger dogs to protect our borders. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #17 December 7, 2004 >We live in a Capitalist society that runs on the notion of "Survival of the > fittest" to some degree. If everything were equal and everyone had the > some chances then this would be communism/socialism. It is not. Untrue. We have elements of both. National parks are communistic (i.e. 'they are owned by everyone.') Roads, cops, schools, the CDC, the FAA etc are socialistic in that the government controls them and uses them for everyone's benefit. >As a parent, you need to take an active role in the education of your >children. Agreed there. >It is not the job of the Government, Federal, State or Local to ensure that > your kid will be successful. No, but it IS their job to educate them well, assuming that the basics (i.e. your support of their education, your teaching them to function socially in school etc) are there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #18 December 7, 2004 Quote>We live in a Capitalist society that runs on the notion of "Survival of the > fittest" to some degree. If everything were equal and everyone had the > some chances then this would be communism/socialism. It is not. Untrue. We have elements of both. National parks are communistic (i.e. 'they are owned by everyone.') Roads, cops, schools, the CDC, the FAA etc are socialistic in that the government controls them and uses them for everyone's benefit. >As a parent, you need to take an active role in the education of your >children. Agreed there. >It is not the job of the Government, Federal, State or Local to ensure that > your kid will be successful. No, but it IS their job to educate them well, assuming that the basics (i.e. your support of their education, your teaching them to function socially in school etc) are there. I disagree.... The school can give you the tools...the books the teachers etc... But they can not force you or make you be successful. It is not their job to make you successful, they are only a tool for those that WISH and TRY to be successful. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #19 December 7, 2004 QuoteKallend, Once again, I direct you to this link: Clicky What makes you think I missed the point? Regardless, do you disagree with my statement.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,147 #20 December 7, 2004 QuoteThe school can give you the tools...the books the teachers etc... But they can not force you or make you be successful. They can't force it, but a good school provides a lot more tools than a poor school does. Yes, even the worst schools can produce successes. Are you willing to stake your kids' future on that? That's the rhetorical you in this case -- I don't think you have kids. Sometimes the strength of the group is more important than the strength of the individual, and the individual can contribute by giving some. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #21 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe school can give you the tools...the books the teachers etc... But they can not force you or make you be successful. They can't force it, but a good school provides a lot more tools than a poor school does. Yes, even the worst schools can produce successes. Are you willing to stake your kids' future on that? That's the rhetorical you in this case -- I don't think you have kids. Sometimes the strength of the group is more important than the strength of the individual, and the individual can contribute by giving some. Wendy W. No, I don't have kids, but I do know when I have them they are going to private schools... I will find a way to pay for it because their education is too important. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #22 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuote>We live in a Capitalist society that runs on the notion of "Survival of the > fittest" to some degree. If everything were equal and everyone had the > some chances then this would be communism/socialism. It is not. Untrue. We have elements of both. National parks are communistic (i.e. 'they are owned by everyone.') Roads, cops, schools, the CDC, the FAA etc are socialistic in that the government controls them and uses them for everyone's benefit. >As a parent, you need to take an active role in the education of your >children. Agreed there. >It is not the job of the Government, Federal, State or Local to ensure that > your kid will be successful. No, but it IS their job to educate them well, assuming that the basics (i.e. your support of their education, your teaching them to function socially in school etc) are there. I disagree.... The school can give you the tools...the books the teachers etc... But they can not force you or make you be successful. It is not their job to make you successful, they are only a tool for those that WISH and TRY to be successful. So why is the US so low in the rankings? Schools in other countries succeed in inculcating these values where ours don't, apparently. How do you explain that, and do you think it healthy for the country to have a large undereducated class of citizens.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #23 December 7, 2004 A "large" class of under educated.... No. I do believe though that intelligence is a bell curve across the population. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,147 #24 December 7, 2004 But you're OK with schools in general being crappy because you can find a good one -- thus that "survival of the fittest" thing. Do you really think the whole middle class arose because of their own personal worth? That kind of "we have it and we'll keep it" methodology is how you end up with two-class societies (those two classes being rich and poor). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #25 December 7, 2004 QuoteA "large" class of under educated.... No. I do believe though that intelligence is a bell curve across the population. How does that explain that other countries are apparently much better at educating their kids than the US? Don't they have the same bell curve?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
