Gun Laws Don't Stop Criminals

[JohnRich 4]

In the news:

Justice Department Study Shows 79 Percent of Criminals Obtained Firearms From Illegal Sources

Ninety-five percent of US police commanders and sheriffs believe most criminals obtain their firearms from illegal sources, according to a survey released by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. Coincidentally, data released by the US Department of Justice appears to confirm this claim by our nation's police executives. The DOJ study refutes the conventional wisdom that guns used in criminal acts are purchased at retail stores or gun shows.

Source: MichNews

Once again: gun-control laws don't stop criminals from getting guns!

[kallend 1,678]

Does that mean 21% of criminals obtain their firearms legally?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[EBSB52 0]

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In the news:

Justice Department Study Shows 79 Percent of Criminals Obtained Firearms From Illegal Sources

Ninety-five percent of US police commanders and sheriffs believe most criminals obtain their firearms from illegal sources, according to a survey released by the National Association of Chiefs of Police. Coincidentally, data released by the US Department of Justice appears to confirm this claim by our nation's police executives. The DOJ study refutes the conventional wisdom that guns used in criminal acts are purchased at retail stores or gun shows.

Source: MichNews

Once again: gun-control laws don't stop criminals from getting guns!

Considering many of the criminals wear badges, I would say 'criminals' get their guns legally, thst is unless you think the US gov is a criminal entity...... which is debateable.

Well, the guns were once purchased legally, unless they were fabrivated, which is unlikely. I think tey mean deirect purchases. In AZ anyone can look in the paper to buy a gun from another citizen, which is how I would think 'criminals' get their guns.

I agree, gun control does nothing positive.

[JohnRich 4]

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Does that mean 21% of criminals obtain their firearms legally?

If you bother to add up the percentages for the sources, it totals to about 93%, so there is a 7% unknown. That would reduce your 21% number, down to 14%.

The majority of that 14% is comprised of 8% purchased from retail stores, which do the government background check on all purchasers. That says something about how good that process is, or rather, how flawed it is. The criminals just use false ID to get around it.

The gun shows that you hear the anti-gun folks whining so much about, account for a whopping .7% of all crime guns!

And note the change in the numbers from the previous survey after implementation of background checks - retail stores went down, but other sources went up. The criminals weren't stopped from getting guns, they just switched sources.

Gun control laws don't work.

[AMax 0]

I would really like to know if there is any correlation between the numbers of legally produced and sold wepons and numbers of illegal weapons in use.

[Dumpster 0]

Gun laws don't stop criminals. Guns stop criminals.

Easy Does It

[aerohaga 0]

If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

For my part, I know nothing with any certainty,
But the sight of the stars makes me dream.
-Vincent Van Gogh

[AggieDave 6]

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If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

I think it reads like this: " If guns cause crime, then my pencil causes misspelled words." --Larry The Cable Guy

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Paulipod 0]

It would be interesting to know how the guns turn from being legal to illegal and how easy that is.

I bet the guns the criminals get hold of were not smuggled into the country or manufactured in their hidden workshop (last bit for you Aggie )

wonder what the % split is on that.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[diablopilot 2]

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If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

Great bumper sticker I've seen recently.

"Guns kill people like spoons made Rosie O'Donald fat."

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohnRich 4]

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I would really like to know if there is any correlation between the numbers of legally produced and sold wepons and numbers of illegal weapons in use.

None.

There are countries with no legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with no legal guns and lots of gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and lots of gun murders.

The only conclusion that you can reach from this broad spectrum of examples, is that legal gun ownership is not the determining factor in gun crime.

[crozby 0]

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The only conclusion that you can reach from this broad spectrum of examples, is that legal gun ownership is not the determining factor in gun crime.

So what is the determining factor?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"So what is the determining factor?"
Social and cultural influences, or plainly put, different strokes for different folks.
John and I agreed a long time ago on the validity (or otherwise) of comparing national statistics as he describes.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[JohnRich 4]

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So what is the determining factor?

As nacmac said; Culture.

That word comprises many different things, but that's where the work needs to be done. However, no one wants to blame their own culture for violence - no, it's far easier to just blame the guns, then get right back to our violent video games, violent music and violent public entertainment.

Here's a quote I saved from somewhere:

Many educators and criminologists assert that we must lay the blame for gun violence where it belongs: An increasingly permissive culture that for many years has been mired in political correctness and where public schools no longer teach traditional morality and the discernment between right and wrong, leading to situational ethics and moral relativism. To the detriment of children, building self-esteem has been placed ahead of personal morality and teaching them to distinguish between right and wrong. There is also lack of discipline at home and in schools because parents and teachers are afraid of reprimanding the young for fear of being denounced by social workers, charged with child abuse, and prosecuted by the state.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"However, no one wants to blame their own culture for violence - no, it's far easier to just blame the guns,"

Or lack of them, John.

But thats a good quote.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Red_Skydiver 0]

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There are countries with no legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with no legal guns and lots of gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and lots of gun murders.

Which countries are these, have you examples which illustrate this? If what you say is true then maybe we could learn something from this.

[justaflygirl 0]

guns dont kill people, people with bad intentions with guns kills people how hard is that to figure out, little bit of common sense goes a long way. If the innocent citizens of this world are prevented from having firearms, then we had mise well be sitting ducks, because no matter what the criminals will always find a way to have guns

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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guns dont kill people, people with bad intentions with guns kills people how hard is that to figure out, little bit of common sense goes a long way. If the innocent citizens of this world are prevented from having firearms, then we had mise well be sitting ducks, because no matter what the criminals will always find a way to have guns

Right, because in countries with stricter gun control everybody gets robbed on a daily basis. Furthermore, everybody ends up getting shot.

[JohnRich 4]

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There are countries with no legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with no legal guns and lots of gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and lots of gun murders.

Which countries are these, have you examples which illustrate this? If what you say is true then maybe we could learn something from this.

Here is one example of contrast:

Norway - 32% with guns, 3.6 gun homicide rate.
Canada - 29% with guns, 8.4 gun homicide rate.
West Germany - 9% with guns, 2.0 gun homicide rate.
North Ireland - 8% with guns, 21.0 gun homicide rate.

Another:

The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's. Finland and Sweden have very different gun ownership rates, but very similar murder rates. Israel, with a higher gun ownership rate than the U.S., has a murder rate 40 percent below Canada's.

For the influence of culture, just think of suicide. The Japanese with virtually no guns, commit far fewer murders than Americans, and at the same time, far *more* suicides. And Japanese-Americans living in the U.S. with full availability to guns, still commit the same low murder rate as their countrymen back home. That's a factor of their culture, not the availability of guns.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

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Quote

There are countries with no legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with no legal guns and lots of gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and few gun murders.
There are countries with lots of legal guns and lots of gun murders.

Which countries are these, have you examples which illustrate this? If what you say is true then maybe we could learn something from this.

Here is one example of contrast:

Norway - 32% with guns, 3.6 gun homicide rate.
Canada - 29% with guns, 8.4 gun homicide rate.
West Germany - 9% with guns, 2.0 gun homicide rate.
North Ireland - 8% with guns, 21.0 gun homicide rate.

Another:

The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's. Finland and Sweden have very different gun ownership rates, but very similar murder rates. Israel, with a higher gun ownership rate than the U.S., has a murder rate 40 percent below Canada's.

For the influence of culture, just think of suicide. The Japanese with virtually no guns, commit far fewer murders than Americans, and at the same time, far *more* suicides. And Japanese-Americans living in the U.S. with full availability to guns, still commit the same low murder rate as their countrymen back home. That's a factor of their culture, not the availability of guns.

You mention Northern Ireland has 8% guns, where did you get that figure? Guns are illegal in NI so the figure can only be an estimate at best. Forgive my ignorance but what is a 21.0 gun homicide rate? 21 what? 21 deaths, 21 per 1000 populace...? You list 4 countries but didn't make it clear which of these have legal ownership and which don't - I'm afraid I've never had the inclination to research this as it's never affected or bothered me - unfortunately/fortunately I'm blissfully ignorant