Iran Wants to Change Conditions of Freeze

[Darius11 12]

You know what I find odd. That the ship said they thought it was an F14.
F14 are fighter jets not bombers.
Also the admiral took close to 2 min. to make a decision and they are trained to make decisions in 30 sec. I think he knew what he was doing.

But as always the United States never fucks up it is always every ones fault but us. Why am I not surprised

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wmw999 2,147]

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was not on a comercial route, it was not flying a comercial flight profile, it was warned to change course away from the ship or it would be fired upon, it turned toward the ship instead...

From the History Channel:

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One month later, U.S. authorities admitted that both the Vincennes and the airbus had been within a recognized commercial flightpath, and that the Iranian jet was flying at 12,000 feet and not descending.

Down a little further, about the warnings broadcast:

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none were broadcast over air traffic control--despite the Vincennes having the capability. It is speculated that inside the cockpit of Flight 655, all channels were in use communicating with ground control, since the plane had just taken off

You have to roll that incident pretty tightly for it not to come off as a really unfortunate blunder, which killed innocent people. The early statements were that the Vincennes was in international waters, and that the jet was outside the corridor and descending. However, later evidence, including airport radar, other locators and the like, indicate that neither of these were the case.

It wasn't malicious. But it was wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,647]

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And the US got plans and some materials from Britain in 1942-3 to get the Manhattan project going. Your point?

Don't forget German scientists...

But you still have failed to name ONE major scientific discovery from Iran.

Untill you do that, don't expect me to respond to you about this.

Your question is as meaningful as asking what is the use of a newborn baby.

No-one knows where the next breakthrough will come from. No-one expected a Swiss patent clerk to come up with a major breakthrough in 1905, but Einstein came up with three. What scientific breakthroughs had come from Switzerland before that? Who expected an English farmboy to revolutionize the world and set the stage for the Industrial Revolution, in the late 1600s? What scientific breakthroughs had come from England before that? Then Isaac Newton came along.

Your position is silly and totally contrary to the lessons of the history of science.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jdhill 0]

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F14 are fighter jets not bombers.

Bombers are not the only threat to a ship... the USS Stark was hit by a missile launched from a Mirage 2000, also a fighter... BTW, F14's can also be configured to drop bombs.

You think the Admiral knew, maybe he did, maybe he had to agonize over the decision to shoot down that appears to be civilian airliner, but also appears to be threatening the ship... as we have seen, an airliner makes an effective guided missile... why did the plane turn toward the ship?

The US has made mistakes, plenty of them... this may have been one of them. But there were lots of things in the chain of events that were not done by the US that led to the engagement.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[jdhill 0]

Funny, I watched a documentary on either the history channel or the discovery channel about the event, and it did not mention those findings.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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So only nations that are leaders are allowed to do science research now?

Is Iran known as a learder in scientific research?

Being you are a science guy, what do you think they will "research"?

Because they are not a leader in scientific research they should be denied all aspects of it?

No, I don't full trust them either - but going back to renogotiate an agreement at the beginning stages is not uncommon. At least they are having talks about it, instead of being covert.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 7]

from your own site.

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Iran has also become a supplier of ballistic missile
technology and assistance to other nations. Unclassified reports
from the Intelligence Community have identified Iran as a supplier
of both Scud missile technology and solid-propellant missile technology
to Syria. Press reports have also linked Iran to other ballistic
missile programs, including Libya’s. In testimony to the Senate
earlier this year, Director of Central Intelligence Tenet said,
‘‘Iran’s existence as a secondary supplier of this technology to other
countries is the trend that worries me the most.’

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Iran also continues its aggressive pursuit of nuclear, biological,
and chemical weapons.

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Iran, Missiles, and WMD.
Iran has very active missile and WMD development programs, and is seeking foreign
missile, nuclear, chemical, and biological technologies. Iran’s ballistic missile
program is one of the largest in the Middle East

-ROBERT D. WALPOLE

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TESTIMONY OF A. NORMAN SCHINDLER, DEPUTY DIRECTOR,
DCI NONPROLIFERATION CENTER

Mr. SCHINDLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As Mr. Walpole indicated,
I will provide a summary of Iran’s WMD programs, the programs
designed to produce the weapons to be delivered by the missile
systems that Mr. Walpole described, as well as by other delivery
means.
The Iranians regard these as extremely sensitive programs and
go to great lengths to hide them from us. As a result, our knowledge
of these programs is based on extremely sensitive sources and
methods. This precludes me, as Mr. Walpole indicated earlier, from
providing many details. But we hope this summary will nonetheless
be useful, and we would be prepared to elaborate in greater
detail on all of these issues in a classified setting.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to begin with a few comments on
Iran’s nuclear and nuclear weapons program. The Intelligence
Community judges that Iran is actively pursuing the acquisition of
fissile material and the expertise and technology necessary to form
the material into nuclear weapons. As part of this process, Iran is
attempting to develop the capability to produce both plutonium and
highly-enriched uranium.
Iran is seeking nuclear-related equipment, material, and technical
expertise from a variety of foreign sources, especially in Russia.
Tehran claims that it is attempting to master nuclear technology
for civilian research and nuclear energy programs. However,
in that guise it is developing whole facilities, such as a uranium
conversion facility, that could be used to support the production of
fissile material for a nuclear weapon.
Despite international efforts to curb the flow of critical technologies
and equipment, Tehran continues to seek fissile material
and technology for weapons development and has established an
elaborate system of covert military and civilian organizations to
support its acquisition goals.

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PREPARED STATEMENT OF A. NORMAN SCHINDLER

Despite international efforts to curb the flow of critical technologies and equipment,
Tehran continues to seek fissile material and technology for weapons development
and has established an elaborate system of covert military and civilian
organizations to support its acquisition goals.

Russian entities are interacting with Iranian nuclear research centers on a wide
variety of activities beyond the Bushehr project. Many of these projects have direct
application to the production of weapons-grade fissile material.

The U.S. purchased 600 kg of HEU from Khazakstan. Britain and the U.S. removed
almost 9 pounds of HEU from Georgia. It would be dangerous to suppose
that only the U.S. and the UK could have success in such transactions. This is especially
so given that within eight of the states of the former Soviet Union there is
reported to be some 700 tons of fissile or near-fissile material located at over 50
sites.

Here is the program that was sugested:

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First, the structure and posture of U.S. forces: Constant attention is needed to
maintain the capability to undermine the utility to Iran of nuclear weapons and
missile programs. This includes, but is not defined by, deployment of ballistic missile
defense in the region and to defend the American homeland as well. It is also
the case that forces deployed by the U.S. to the region must assure Iran’s neighbors
that they can perform their assigned missions—including, if necessary, suppression
of ballistic missile attacks. It is likely that this capability will need to be demonstrated
and that regional leaders will want to be apprised of U.S. thinking about,
but not be implicated in, the planning or execution of those missions. Of greater importance
to those leaders is an assurance that in the event of a crisis or conflict
the security burden will be shared equitably. The U.S. will need to consider as well
whether additional attention is needed to reinforce the security and raise the deterrent
threshold for allies outside of Iran’s immediate neighborhood that are potentially
at risk, particularly Turkey and Israel.

Second, new approaches to stemming the supply of expertise, materials and technology
to Iran: The U.S. might consider altering its approach toward nations and
non-state actors supplying Iran’s programs. Rather than sanction entities within
those nations, the U.S. might consider taking countervailing action. The suppliers
to Iran are contributing to the development of a capability that Iran could use to
threaten important, perhaps one day vital, interests of the U.S.. Those suppliers
need to be put on notice that the U.S. will treat their actions as a direct threat and
act accordingly.

Third, regional proliferation: The Middle East/Southwest Asia region is already
one in which considerable proliferation activity occurs. Should the Iranian programs
continue to progress, it is likely that other nations will find themselves confronted
with the question: how shall we respond? The U.S. needs to consider how far it can
discourage additional countries from deploying—explicitly or ‘‘in the basement’’—
missile and weapons programs—or substantially modernizing those they do possess.
In those cases where countries decided they will proceed, the U.S. will need to consider
how it would respond and the implications of its response for global arms control
regimes.

Fourth, consultation with our European friends and allies: Britain, France, Germany
and Italy, among others, have their own interests in the Persian Gulf and in
repairing their ties with Iran. They need to understand the seriousness with which
the U.S. takes the potential threat posed by Iran and the measures it is prepared
to take to mitigate that threat. The U.S. should review with them, and seek cooperation
in, a range of diplomatic, economic and military measures it is prepared
to take to undermine the utility of its programs to Iran and to stem the continuing
flow of support to those programs.

Fifth, a net assessment of U.S. interests in the Middle East/Persian Gulf/Southwest
Asia: The U.S. has a number of distinct, sometimes conflicting objectives in the
region. These include: the peace process, Turkish and Israeli security and defense,
stability and threat reduction in the Gulf, Caspian oil, Pakistani political stability,
moderating political and religious extremism and support for international terrorism,
and Iraqi compliance with UN Security Council resolutions. Chinese, Russian
and EU initiatives are in play simultaneously. All touch to a greater or lesser
extent on Iranian interests. The U.S. needs to be clear about what its own priorities
may be, where there are opportunities for agreement with Iran, where misunderstandings
can be avoided and what the basic points of real difference between Iran
and the U.S. may be.

Sixth, a fresh look at the future of U.S.-Iranian relations: This is the most difficult
step for American political leaders to take. The memories of the 1979 hostage crisis,
two decades of vilification, the toll taken by state-sponsored terrorism and the determination
with which Iran seeks to displace the U.S. in the region make it difficult
to come to this issue without grave reservation. Yet, Iran is undeniably in the throes
of important political and social changes. To be sure, elections do not make for a
democratic regime of a kind we understand in the West. Nor is it likely that a more
popular or moderate Iranian government will be moved any time soon to abandon
its nuclear weapons and missile programs. But the people of Iran are having an influence
on their own government. It is in the United States’ interest to encourage
that trend. Public attitudes in Iran might be affected positively if the U.S. were to
take the necessary steps to undermine the utility to Iran of nuclear weapons and
missiles and to staunch the flow of foreign support to those programs while offering
to engage in reciprocal actions to reduce tensions in the region. At the same time
the U.S. cannot allow itself to be drawn into a relationship where, as in the case
of North Korea, the U.S. becomes the demander. That will only reward Iran for its

behavior, encourage its suppliers, frustrate U.S. relations with our allies, further destabilize
the region and result in crisis and conflict with Iran.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhreeZone 15]

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But you still have failed to name ONE major scientific discovery from Iran.

Here is a list from just their January issue of Juournal of Biotechnology.

Re-design of downstream processing techniques for nanoparticulate bioproducts
Cloning and sequencing of desulfurization operon from a newly isolated bacterium
Rhodococcus FMF (that they discovered)


Or how about this one:
Purification of large quantities of biologically active recombinant human growth hormone


You never know where the next break through in a tiny area that leads to huge future improve ments is coming from. Israel designed the next generation computer firewalls about 2 years before western companies caught on an used their knowledge to do the same.

Science is about standing on the groundwork layed out by the people that came before you. Newton was hardly the first to think of gravity and physics, he just build his ideas on top of those before him. Real major scientific developments are extemely rare and are mainly flukes. Everything else is just adding one more tiny piece to an already large pile and then claiming the pile as your own. If you want to study a star you get a telescope to look at it. In the telescope are probally hundreds of things that were studied before you. You might be able to say that you were the first to look at a new star or something.. but you are only standing on the backs of those that came before you and are claiming their work as your own. No one would decide to look at a star then go study glass making, steel making, mineing (for the materials), design, construction, phyics and everything else that goes into a telescope.

Same thing with this. Even though they might not have a MAJOR discovery, a minor observation can lead to things down the road that are yet unknown.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[storm1977 0]

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Not at all, they are only requesting permission to unseal and operate "two dozen".

It is always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[PhreeZone 15]

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It is always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

Except when if they ask forgivness they might have to do it after a war.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[storm1977 0]

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It is always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission

Except when if they ask forgivness they might have to do it after a war.

Ahhh.... But if war could be avoided due to the threat of use of nuclear weapons by Iran.... See where I am going with this.

If they build it secretly.... They finally get a few nukes, then the world finds out..... Then it will just be like a NK stand off.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[billvon 2,433]

>Iran is not known as a leader in science.

Agreed. So they have to work to catch up, eh?

>It IS known as a leader in blowing shit up, and terrorsim.

We're MUCH better at that than they are! Don't be dissing our ability to blow shit up.

[billvon 2,433]

> Then it will just be like a NK stand off.

That works. So far we have had more success with NK than with Iraq. We've shown pretty clearly that we are willing to negotiate with people with nuclear weapons, so it's no suprise that Iran wants negotiation instead of invasion. Wouldn't you?

[freeryde13 0]

well its kind off like here in our country, america has always been a gun state...you know , anybody could have them and all. then when the black panthers and other militant minority groups used that to there advantage to defend thamselves...and entered some california government building legally armed. ownership of guns became harder and harder...in major cities anyway, where there are higher concentrations off minorities.

so the iran thing is following the same principal. to keep them at a military disadvantage will make it easier for us to impose our will.

any " white " populated country could have nukes with no problem i'm sure. besides india and pakistan. its all european, based places that are ok to have nukes. why is there no uproar about the jews nukes? if australia or new zealand wanted nukes( maybe they have them?) it would be acceptable.

so the whole thing of no one else having nukes is militarily a correct move. morrally or ethically it makes no sense. if we want to eliminate nukes...lets all do it. but it is nothing but arrogance to say we can have them and you can't. the leaders of this country have no evidance to say we use our wepons of mass destruction carefully. ie.... two nuclear attacks on civilian populations in japan, napalm in vietnam, tactical nuke in gulf wars, supplying saddam hussein chemical weapons to use on kurds and iran,ect.....

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[mnealtx 0]

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well its kind off like here in our country, america has always been a gun state...you know , anybody could have them and all. then when the black panthers and other militant minority groups used that to there advantage to defend thamselves...and entered some california government building legally armed. ownership of guns became harder and harder...in major cities anyway, where there are higher concentrations off minorities.

Thanks for helping prove the racist roots of gun control!

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the leaders of this country have no evidance to say we use our wepons of mass destruction carefully. ie.... two nuclear attacks on civilian populations in japan, napalm in vietnam, tactical nuke in gulf wars, supplying saddam hussein chemical weapons to use on kurds and iran,ect.....

Show your cite where we used tactical nukes in the gulf war, please...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[storm1977 0]

Tactical Nukes in IRAQ?????

Glad to see you are an informed citizen of the USA (sarcasm)!!!!!

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Ron 7]

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>Iran is not known as a leader in science.

Agreed. So they have to work to catch up, eh?

Let them play catch up in an area that will not lead to a weapon that will do mass amounts of damage. Once they show they really want to advance science, not build nukes I could not give a shit.

I like the idea of letting them do what they want...With the provision that the World will smack the shit out of them if they start shit. However since I have no fiath in the UN to do anything even close to that.

I'd rather prevent the problem in the first place.

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>It IS known as a leader in blowing shit up, and terrorsim.

We're MUCH better at that than they are! Don't be dissing our ability to blow shit up.

Yep, we are the masters of it.

But you never did answer my question about what we do if they take our 10 Billion in Reactors and then build nukes anyway?

Care to ever answer that?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freeryde13 0]

listen man, i can't prove tactical nukes in iraq, i can't prove agent orange in vietnam, and i can't prove that the easter bunny doesn't exist. i personaly have no evidence in my possetion to prove any off these things....... however... the guys from the fist gulf war came back with that gulf war sindrome thing....which i have read may be a result of these tactical nukes.

listen to the over all mesage of what i said....if i spelled a word wrong or something, or got one thing out of five wrong....i'm soooooo sorry.

the point is bullys suck, and always get a beat down eventually. this country is undoudtably the best place to live ....because of our diversity that is...... but to be free, you've gotta have the balls to seek the truth to keep this country great. you do no service to this country by hanging on bush's dick.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[storm1977 0]

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listen man, i can't prove tactical nukes in iraq, i can't prove agent orange in vietnam, and i can't prove that the easter bunny doesn't exist. i personaly have no evidence in my possetion to prove any off these things....... however... the guys from the fist gulf war came back with that gulf war sindrome thing....which i have read may be a result of these tactical nukes.

listen to the over all mesage of what i said....if i spelled a word wrong or something, or got one thing out of five wrong....i'm soooooo sorry.

the point is bullys suck, and always get a beat down eventually. this country is undoudtably the best place to live ....because of our diversity that is...... but to be free, you've gotta have the balls to seek the truth to keep this country great. you do no service to this country by hanging on bush's dick.

Yep and there was a shooter on the grassy Knoll, oh yeah, and we never really landed on the moon and the holocaust didn't happen!!!!!

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[freeryde13 0]

sound of sirens spinning.... uh allright mr storm , pull over. i can let the first one go . but now your getting out of hand. remember, we're here to heeeeelp eachother, not criticize.

sarcasm is a very cool aspect of language but you have to use it right or you simply come across as a petty child or something.

if i walk in the door with a big funny looking hat, you have every right to say, " wow, thats a nice hat", in a sarcastic manor. but you can't say that if i don't have the hat on in the first place.

pm me if i'm going too fast for you ..... so your reply about no holocaust ,and whatever else you said was a shot to the proverbial left field, as well as your thing about me being an informed american citizen.

your homework should be to read and re read my posts, and respond according to the content in them .

so there

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people see me as a challenge to their balance