Thoughts on Euthanasia

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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He's not pushing his religion any more than you are pushing your secularism.

The difference is, is that I'm not the one who in this thread time and time again posting about quotes in the bible telling people that they need to do this and that. Yes people are free to worship their religion, but to tell people that they need to do this or that because it in the bible is not worshipping. It is preaching. And contrary to what some people think. Millions and millions of people in the USA are NOT Christians and do not believe in the Christian bible.

By the way, do not confuse me with an athiest. I am agnostic. The whole universe is beyond my comprehension and I'm not about to let a book written and translated by humans many many years ago change that.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[pajarito 0]

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Trying to figure out how you would rationalize the death penalty with this belief. If ultimately, lives of criminals belong to God, why is it ok to decide it's ok to take their lives against their will? And don't start giving me scripture about punishing the wicked or whatever. This goes to fundamentals. If you believe that man does not have the right to terminate their own life because it belongs to God, then why do they have the right to terminate another life?

I'm honestly not quite clear on how I feel about this topic anymore. Not all Christians agree with it. God gave us both law and grace. There's God's moral law but we also have to live in society together. That's a tough one.

Capital Punishment

[unformed 0]

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Trying to figure out how you would rationalize the death penalty with this belief. If ultimately, lives of criminals belong to God, why is it ok to decide it's ok to take their lives against their will? And don't start giving me scripture about punishing the wicked or whatever. This goes to fundamentals. If you believe that man does not have the right to terminate their own life because it belongs to God, then why do they have the right to terminate another life?

I'm honestly not quite clear on how I feel about this topic anymore. Not all Christians agree with it. God gave us both law and grace. There's God's moral law but we also have to live in society together. That's a tough one.

Capital Punishment

Just ask the Pope, I'm sure he can tell you what you believe in.

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[pajarito 0]

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Alright, I really don't see where you're coming from. On one hand, you're saying God says you can kill yourself, life is sacred, etc, etc, etc. On the other hand you're stating that God justified euthanasia/suicide in the Bible. So, which is it?

What? When did I say that suicide was ok? I might have said that life is sacred. I don’t believe I ever said that euthanasia or suicide was justified in the Bible. I said that it occurred in the Bible. I asked if anyone could find God’s justification for it in the Bible. The Bible depicts history as well as provides moral guidance.

[pajarito 0]

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I was being sarcastic.

Me too!

[unformed 0]

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I was being sarcastic.

Me too!

That works.

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[pajarito 0]

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Just ask the Pope, I'm sure he can tell you what you believe in.

I'm not Catholic. Just because you go to church, are Protestant, Catholic, or other, went to Catholic School, or whatever, does not necessarily mean that you're a Christian. The Pope doesn't hold the keys to heaven. Many people throw out that they're Catholic or went to Catholic school as some kind of catch all for their own personal moral justification or their personal salvation. If whatever you're pushing can't be backed up Biblically, then it's not right. I don't care what denomination you might belong to.

[billvon 2,400]

>Biblical basis for God’s justification of it.

The bible gives an example of a man who was despondent over his failings, kills himself, and is buried in a place of honor. And in another example, a great biblical hero asks for the strength to kill himself and god grants it to him. Two examples of approval of suicide in the bible. I don't know how or why god justifies it, but if the bible is truly the word of god, he shows that it is OK in some cases.

>I can’t find evidences of toothbrushes in the Bible either, Bill.

Agreed. So outlawing them based on their lack of appearance in the bible would be a bit silly, yes?

> Death and dying is mentioned and dealt with in the Bible. Just because
> methods have changed in our technological development over the years
> doesn’t change the end result.

It does change what we _do_, though, because we have the ability to do more now. We can now know with great certainty that a given disease will cause years of suffering, pain and dementia, and that it will end in death. During biblical times they didn't have that sort of certainty.

To switch to an evangelical point of view -

If god is calling you home, and making it clear that you're going to end up there very soon, who are you to fight his calling? Surely when he gives you a terminal brain tumor that will render you incontinent, insane, vegetative and then dead, he is telling you in no uncertain terms it's time to shuffle off this mortal coil. Unless you believe in a god that _wants_ those people to suffer unimaginably painful and degrading deaths, which is a belief I do not share.

[billvon 2,400]

>Just because you go to church, are Protestant, Catholic, or other, went to
> Catholic School, or whatever, does not necessarily mean that you're a
> Christian.

Actually it does. Anyone who adheres to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus is a christian.

[Zenister 0]

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Yes it is ... one big reason the states want it to be illegal is because suicide is illegal ... if someone commits suicde, it's a crime, and the state gets to seize your assets.

care to provide a source to back that?

suicide is NOT illegal... attempted suicide and assisting in a suicide are, but the state cannot seize your assets unless you have not provided for their distribution by having a will..


honestly I agree completely with JP.. it is your life, it is the one thing that is absolutely irrevocably yours... live, or lose it, in any manner you chose that doesnt not interfere with the same right in others..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[unformed 0]

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Yes it is ... one big reason the states want it to be illegal is because suicide is illegal ... if someone commits suicde, it's a crime, and the state gets to seize your assets.

care to provide a source to back that?

suicide is NOT illegal... attempted suicide and assisting in a suicide are, but the state cannot seize your assets unless you have not provided for their distribution by having a will..


honestly I agree completely with JP.. it is your life, it is the one thing that is absolutely irrevocably yours... live, or lose it, in any manner you chose that doesnt not interfere with the same right in others..

I'll see if I can find something; that's what I was told in high school .... granted that's not the best source, but I'll still see if I can find something...

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[Zenister 0]

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Can you find Biblical basis for either euthenasia or suicide? Not that it didn't happen in Biblical times but does God condone it?

your "God" has condoned quite a number of acttions that are morally reprehensible...genocide with the jawbone of an ass sound familiar??

citing Biblical justifications for legally restricting the behavior of others is asinine, simply because of the nature of the 'source'.. it is a RELIGIOUS text, nothing more...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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Everything happens for a reason. There is a purpose. We are not here by accident. There is design to it all. You may have no idea what effect you have on others based on what’s happened to you. It shouldn’t be “all about us” and should be “all about others.”

Ok, firstly, the whole about everything happening for a reason. That's your opinion, and I respect you for holding to your view, and I don't have the same one. I'd love you to give me an example of a reason.

FAR to many people, most particularly those in fundamentalist religions, have issues differentiating between of 'reason' and 'cause' . Everything has a cause, it does not always have a reason...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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Actually it does. Anyone who adheres to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus is a christian.

If you mean by that if one admits that they fall short of the Glory of God and accepts Jesus as their Lord and only means of salvation as it is stated in the Bible, then I agree. If you mean adhere to the teachings and perform good works as is also stated as a requirement in the Bible, then I disagree. You can do good deeds as listed in the Bible all day long and be just as guilty as anyone else. Christianity is less about the religion than it is about the person of Jesus. In that aspect, it is less like a religion than all of the others. Anyone who puts the religion of Christianity above God is in fact performing idolatry.

[billvon 2,400]

>If you mean by that if one admits that they fall short of the Glory of God
> and accepts Jesus as their Lord and only means of salvation as it is
> stated in the Bible, then I agree.

Well, no. That's Pajarito's Definition of a Good Christian, perhaps, but the rest of the world defines a christian as someone who follows the teachings of christ, in whatever way they choose to interpret them. Not a problem as long as you make it clear you're using different definitions of words than most people do.

[TheBachelor 4]

I, too am for euthanasia. If I'm in constant pain, and/or I just don't want to live anymore, why can't I have my life ended in a humane way? It's my life, let me do with it what I choose.

I would also say the same thing if I'm in a vegetative state with no hope for recovery. Why pay tons of money to feed and water me for years? Pull the plug.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[diablopilot 2]

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What does the misuse of the religion or the vile things that some people in religion do have to do with God's message and why you should or should not believe it? You're missing seeing the forest for the trees.

Lecturing me on Christianity isn't going to work. I studied it both before and after I dismissed it. My take? The Religion is a fanciful construct that helps some individuals fill the void of unanswered questions, and calms their fear of the unknown. Others may seek to answer the questions themselves, and are not panicked by the unknown.

The problem with it, is I have found while a person can contemplate the subject and think for themselves, most don't. It's too easy a trap, letting people allow themselves to be led easily, and react reflexively to "alternative" views negatively, and without reason when they don't fit into the individuals limited world view.

Years of Catholic schooling was time enough to find many examples of this. Western religion really doesn't promote independent thought, and I don't make a good sheep. "Christianity" is directly responsible for some of the worst atrocities ever committed by man, but what can you expect from a theology that starts of telling you how "bad" you are, uses guilt to make you subservient to the church, and has you forever sacrificing yourself for someone's ideal of a nebulous prize.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tricky 0]

Yikes, this thread took off...

Personally, I'm all for euthanasia.

It is after all a personal choice.

Being selfish and religion seem to be the reoccuring themes...

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Lecturing me on Christianity isn't going to work. I studied it both before and after I dismissed it. My take? The Religion is a fanciful construct that helps some individuals fill the void of unanswered questions, and calms their fear of the unknown. Others may seek to answer the questions themselves, and are not panicked by the unknown.

Well said. I agree.
Something else I found... a little off topic... but yet.. interesting...

"We do not even ask about meaning in death, so busy are we with trying to postpone it. But we will not conquer death by one day developing a technology so magnificent that no one will have to die. Nor can we conquer death by postponing it ever longer. We can conquer death only by finding meaning in it...

...To treat me as if I had no moral responsibilities when I am ill or debilitated implies that my condition has rendered me morally incompetent. Only small children, the demented or insane, and those totally lacking in the capacity to act are free from moral duties. There is dignity, then, and a kind of meaning in moral agency, even as it forces extremely difficult decisions upon us (John Hardwig "Duty To Die")."

[Casurf1978 0]

Hey Pajarito. On a lighter note, wanna pull the plug on Arafat. I got a raffle going 20 bucks buys you a ticket to be the one that 'pulls the plug'. Transportation to and from France not included, but you get a cool T-Shirt.

[Eiley 0]

My partner had a degenerative hereditary disease - a vicious, nasty evil disease. He watched his father die - over a protracted period - from this same disease. Watched it first take over his mental faculties, turning his brain to mush, making him incapable of reason, of recognising his family, and then his body, as he became a useless vegetable lying in a bed, in unimaginable pain, waiting to finally die. The process took years.

There was no chance a cure would be found before Paul also fell victim to this disease that the doctors confirmed he had. None. Nada. Zilch. He told very few people that he had it, but those who knew also knew of his wish that as soon as he was incapable of rationality he wanted to die. I told him I would not be able to personally fulfil his wishes. However, I could totally understand and respect his decision and would support him for as long as it took and support whoever it was who did the final deed.

As it turned out, I never had to make that heartbreaking decision. This sport took him instead - instantly, painlessly and at the happiest time of his life. Just wish it had been ten years later.

nothing to see here

[PLFXpert 0]

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It's considered the kindest thing we can do for pets that are in pain. It's a tough question, because yes, people CAN change their minds. Suicide is an option for people who have the means -- assisted suicide in one sense simply means that one accepts the person's decision about their own life, and assists them in making it peaceful and painless.

I was just thinking about this, this morning--mainly in the case of elderly in a lot of pain, little quality of life, but still have their wits about them. I think when you have your wits it must be even more torturous and I can understand why such a person in this situation might make the decision to "have themselves put to sleep".

It's not the choice I would likely make for myself. But I think I would support a person's right to choose (if they're still consciously able to do so).

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[steveorino 7]

The ONLY way I think I could make that is IF my family was ceceased as well. That means I outlived my wife, kids, grandkids. IF that was th ecase and I was terminally ill or had no quality of life I could make that decision ... maybe.

steveOrino

[PLFXpert 0]

You don't think it's selfish of the family to want you kept alive even though they know you're just laying there all day, every day, in pain? Sometimes there's peace in knowing someone is no longer suffering. I've lost family members to cancer. Thankfully they had great quality of life up until the last couple weeks. Though sad, I was happier to see them pass than I was to see them so sad and in such pain & terror.

And selfish or unselfish of the family, I would also tend to think (if it were me in the painful, bed-ridden position) it would be better for my familiy to let them grieve and begin the process of moving on. I say this, even though I've always said and still say death & severe and/or terminal sickness is far more difficult for the survivors.

My opinion is not solid, as I haven't put an extreme amount of thought into it, and certainly I'm open to other ideas and opinions. Not to mention I haven't read this entire thread or even 1/4 of it yet.

But regardless of how I feel about the person's decision, I think I'm pretty steadfast in my position it should be their choice.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

I believe that if somebody of sound mind wants to die, they should be allowed to die humanely. I applaud The Netherlands for the system they have in place.

[steveorino 7]

I've dealt with a lot of people that have had a lot of regrets after a loved one died. i would not wish that burden on my family as much as I would not to be a burden either.

To me it is a case by case call.

steveOrino