peacefuljeffrey 0 #26 September 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhat would have been the draw for creatures that live for billions of years to come here across millions of miles at sub-light speeds, if intelligent civilization was not even around on earth yet? You're thinking like a human, and ascribing human interests and thought processes to potential alien sentient beings. Maybe what they're interested in is NOT "intelligent" life forms, but, oh, hydrogen, or crystal, or iron ore...now, why they'd be interested in that I dunno, but it's possible they're not looking for someone to communicate with...just explore, just see, just find out what's out there. I think that's Tom's point, as well as we have NO real idea what something like that would really be like, let alone life span, ability to handle mechanical items, and so forth. That's human judgment about humans, not about aliens. Ciels- Michele So they got here decades ago, and want our resources, but have not been seen conducting operations to remove them from our planet? Is it "thinking like a human" again to fail to realize they might be realllly lethargic and might take eons before they begin to break the earth into chunks for their use? I just think that people, when they believe this stuff is LIKELY, instead of just POSSIBLY, are making a huge, unjustified leap. I remember a great expression I once heard: "When you hear hoofbeats, first think horses, not zebras." It means, don't go suspecting the least likely proposition before you suspect the more likely ones. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #27 September 8, 2004 The poster in Mulder's office says volumes about UFO theorists: "I want to believe" (emphasis added) It presupposes a bias toward believing. A more scientific approach would have the poster read, "I'm open to seeing what's out there." That would mean you are objective about whether it's likely "something's out there" or not. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #28 September 8, 2004 QuoteQuote But they would have needed to know billions of years ago when they set out that this neck of the universe would be worth visiting in a few billion years time. Highly unlikely that they'd just be passing by at the right time. It's worse than that - even 5000 years ago there wasn't much to see here on Earth. I think it's the opposite. We have more and more of manmade garbage, but less and less to see what I'd like to see. And with your nickname I thought you'd agree. For example coral reefs are dying really fast and it's mostly caused by pollution. Nothing to see in Egypt 5000 years ago? Well, there might have been the longest lasting civilization earth has seen. I'd like to visit them (as I like to see different cultures around the world today) 100000 million years ago there were dinosaurs walking the earth. Too boring to stop for couple of photographs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #29 September 8, 2004 QuoteQuote>Slower than light travel wouldn't be a real big impediment to >someone with a lifespan like that. Stars burn out if it takes you that long to get between them. That would be a bit of an impediment. Our EARTH is more than billions of years old, bill. I think stars last a bit longer than planets like earth do. It's been calculated that our sun and earth are about 5 billion years old. It'll take about another 5 billion years till sun has burned all of it's fuel and that will eventually kill everything on earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #30 September 8, 2004 Also, who's the say, creatures on a different planet don't have the technology for faster than light travel. Or maybe it's simply by accident that they were passing by and saw us. Maybe they were searching their skies and saw activity in our solar system and wanted to see what's here. Of course, it's highly unlikely, but then again, the Big Bang was highly unlikely; the fact that we exist was a fluke; it was an accident that happened. Regardless, wven though we think we are extremely technologically ahead, maybe they have a different style of ships, or have been travelling in space for hundreds of years instead of just decades. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if they have lightspeed travel. Imagine how far we've progressed in the last 100 years, and think about what we will be able to do in the year 2500. Then again, this is all just possibiilities. No one really knows. (Except my friend from that planet.)This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #31 September 8, 2004 QuoteNo, but maintaining a craft that could do it, while successfully navigating around all the myriad lethal threats that must surely exist throughout space, all the way specifically to come to our tiny little sun and our tiny little planet... that's too hard for me to believe is likely. Do you mean they picked us specifically, all the way from a star that has to be at least millions of years distant at sub-light speeds? And why do you seem to find it not unlikely for creatures to be able to live for billions of years? Do you frequently play the apologist for wildly unlikely premises? This sure sounds like it. What if they _were_ the craft? Or they were artificial intelligence built by some organic life form specifically for the purpose of self-replicating and exploring? I don't really think anyone would _specifically_ want to come here. I mean, why would they? Unless they're like us. How excited would we be if we found a spot in the sky that was pouring transmissions into space? But why wouldn't they just be methodically mapping everything, and stumble on us? Or be random, space based, wanderers, or anything in between? Saying it's unlikely because we wouldn't do it that way (whichever way you can hypothesize) does not, in my view, make sufficient allowance for the alienness of, well, aliens.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #32 September 8, 2004 QuoteMy big reason for discounting Tom's hypothesis is that at a time when this race would have detected earth and set out to reach it, mankind would not have been anything near existing yet. Would these creatures have been summoned by dinosaurs? Or by one-celled protozoa? What would have been the draw for creatures that live for billions of years to come here across millions of miles at sub-light speeds, if intelligent civilization was not even around on earth yet? Haven't you ever heard of warp speed and wormholes, Jeffrey? Seriously, space probably isn't linear, has all kinds of twists and wrinkles, so space travel probably could eventually be far more effiicent than it is now. I do believe that we aren't the only sentient creatures in the universe, but I also don't believe we've been contacted by them yet. Unless you count some of my patients who definitely do not seem to reside on the same planet as the rest of us. I do believe that there are UFOs, there are always things that people can't identify, but there doesn't have to be anything spacealienish about it either. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #33 September 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhat would have been the draw for creatures that live for billions of years to come here across millions of miles at sub-light speeds, if intelligent civilization was not even around on earth yet? You're thinking like a human, and ascribing human interests and thought processes to potential alien sentient beings. Maybe what they're interested in is NOT "intelligent" life forms, but, oh, hydrogen, or crystal, or iron ore...now, why they'd be interested in that I dunno, but it's possible they're not looking for someone to communicate with...just explore, just see, just find out what's out there. I think that's Tom's point, as well as we have NO real idea what something like that would really be like, let alone life span, ability to handle mechanical items, and so forth. That's human judgment about humans, not about aliens. Ciels- Michele Mm, but it's also very human to suggest that *because* we lack any knowledge of something, there's a *good chance* it is a certain way. As in aliens being interested in earth, a little ball of dirt in a remote galaxy, which has only had advanced civilizations for a few thousands years. The universe is a Big Fucking Place. It is possible that aliens just randomly visits solar system and planets. More likely from human experience is that there is a selection criteria. All there is here can be found in other places, as far as raw materials go. IF we assume they go about it randomly, the number of aliens needed to even give a small probability of earth being one of the planet visited during a time there's an advanced civilization on it would be massive. We don't know anything about it, and we shouldn't claim so. Anything goes, including furry little yellow gods who decide what is yellow and what is not. It's possible Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #34 September 8, 2004 UFOs - Yes, sure, in the sense that the government is most likely working on the "next" stealth fighter type project. There is no reason in my mind why they wouldn't be. Aliens - Sure, why? Because there is no good reason not to and I think that its somewhat naive to belive that we have everything out there all too ourselves without some kind of proof. Highly un-likely that any significant number of other intelligent entitys out there is anything at all like our civilization. Space is BIG. Making direct comparisons is just something that humans do to try and be more comfortable with the possibility and is a direct extension of sci-fi movies and T.V. shows.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #35 September 8, 2004 QuoteNot anything to do with the article, but yes, I do. word ------------Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #36 September 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteNot anything to do with the article, but yes, I do. word ------------ Same here. In fact I have 100% incontrovertible proof that unidentified flying objects exist. In fact, I see something in the sky now and don't know what it is. So there's one Do I believe space crafts from other planets are visiting ours? No. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #37 September 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteNot anything to do with the article, but yes, I do. word ------------ Same here. In fact I have 100% incontrovertible proof that unidentified flying objects exist. In fact, I see something in the sky now and don't know what it is. So there's one Is it one of these: http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/flying_triangle_040902.html Do I believe space crafts from other planets are visiting ours? No.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 September 9, 2004 Quote We have more and more of manmade garbage, but less and less to see what I'd like to see. And with your nickname I thought you'd agree. ---- Nothing to see in Egypt 5000 years ago? Well, there might have been the longest lasting civilization earth has seen. I'd like to visit them (as I like to see different cultures around the world today) The pyramids were built 4500 years ago. I picked 5000 to stay outside that edge. If you prefer 6000, fine. Same point applies. It's a long way to the nearest star, and much further to the closest ones we've detected probably planets on. I suppose there could be alien naturalists out there who aren't looking in particular for sentient life. But again with the distance problem, I think you have to accept some form of creationism (a God) for it to be very plausible. I don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #39 September 9, 2004 QuoteThere doesn't have to be anything spacealienish about it either. Jen "Spacealienish" I LOVE it! --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #40 September 9, 2004 QuoteWhat if they _were_ the craft? Or they were artificial intelligence built by some organic life form specifically for the purpose of self-replicating and exploring? I have always loved the idea that just as nature has created creatures on earth that can swim in water, walk on land, and fly in the sky, it may well have created creatures that can survive in and propel themselves through space. Imagine a creature that in the process of metabolizing its food, creates a sort of jet that it can direct to propel itself in the opposite direction. Its "excretion" would be a type of exhaust combustion, like a rocket engine. Or maybe, since we have electric eels, such a creature might generate ions that it propels behind it. Or maybe a creature that catches solar wind or other particles or rays, like the "space sails" that have been theorized in magazines like "Omni." (Is Omni still published? Don't recall having seen it in a while.) QuoteI don't really think anyone would _specifically_ want to come here. I mean, why would they? Unless they're like us. How excited would we be if we found a spot in the sky that was pouring transmissions into space? But why wouldn't they just be methodically mapping everything, and stumble on us? Well, we haven't been pouring transmissions into space for much more than what, eighty years? So it's not unreasonable to assume that we are limited to having attracted the notice of those alien races within about 80 light years -- NOT very far by universal or even galactic standards. I always wonder what religious people make of conjecture like this. I mean, doesn't common Christianity teach the dogma that OURS is THE civilization made by the god that created all of creation? The ONE god anywhere and WE are his chosen creation, made in his image. Doesn't that dogma preclude any belief that we will find intelligent life elsewhere? Or do they hedge, and say we may find intelligent life, but it will not have souls that god will take to heaven? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #41 September 9, 2004 QuoteImagine a creature that in the process of metabolizing its food, creates a sort of jet that it can direct to propel itself in the opposite direction. Its "excretion" would be a type of exhaust combustion, like a rocket engine. I must be an alien, because I do that on the jump plane! At least I try to time my "exhaust combustion" for my exit. Sometimes it can happen before we reach altitude, then someone needs to open the door. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #42 September 9, 2004 QuoteI always wonder what religious people make of conjecture like this. I mean, doesn't common Christianity teach the dogma that OURS is THE civilization made by the god that created all of creation? The ONE god anywhere and WE are his chosen creation, made in his image. Doesn't that dogma preclude any belief that we will find intelligent life elsewhere? Or do they hedge, and say we may find intelligent life, but it will not have souls that god will take to heaven? well, since Christian belief is that man was made in God's image, and since God is fundamentally a 1) universal intelligence and 2) a creator.....then that would mean that man is also a possesor of an intellect, and also a creator, hence, in the image of God. But if we encounter other aliens that also have an intellect, and are creators, than we would have to say that they are also made in the image of God, even if they have six legs & their head coming out of their butthole. but probably, as you implied, the Bible writers didn't anticipate this too much. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
