Thats it, these fuckers need to die!

[Botellines 0]

Yeah, it may be a bit extreme, but by the current definition of Terrorist (according to Bush) the U.S army could be considered as such.
It seems that if Irak do it is the same, and if the U.S does it, it is always diferent. (it reminds me of a couple of relationships...)

If we play, let´s all play with the same rules. At the moment too many war supporters are making petty distintions to give a moral justification for the massacre going on in the middle east.

Okay, you can now start to spray that fire extinguisher in the air.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Okay, you can now start to spray that fire extinguisher in the air."

Well...This is the sort of fire I am used to dealing with, so be prepared to get very wet.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[rickjump1 0]

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Yeah, it may be a bit extreme, but by the current definition of Terrorist (according to Bush) the U.S army could be considered as such.
It seems that if Irak do it is the same, and if the U.S does it, it is always diferent. (it reminds me of a couple of relationships...)

If we play, let´s all play with the same rules. At the moment too many war supporters are making petty distintions to give a moral justification for the massacre going on in the middle east.

Okay, you can now start to spray that fire extinguisher in the air.

A long time ago I had a friend give me the solution to winning the war in Vietnam. He said,"put all the good people in a boat off the coast, kill all the bad people, cover the country with a foot of concrete, and then sink the boat". This is the kind of tidy solution some of us think is the answer for today. This is going to be a prolonged war with virtually an unlimited supply of terrorists, most coming from countries that despise democracy and hate anything western except technology. The sad thing is if we left the Middle East today, we would only be sending them a sign of weakness and an invitation to kill us here at home. The poor civilians that are daily stepping on cluster bombs and old mines that we left behind in S.E. Asia only want them removed. They haven't the means to kill us. The people we are fighting today do.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[funks 1]

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nuke them
kill them all
They are not so innocent

I bet all of this was in Osama Bin Laden´s head when he decided to crash two planes in the twin towers. Amazing the things some people have in common with OBL.

Just for the record, and i am sure i will get flamed for this, I do think that the U.S army in general is not better at all than the terrorists in general. A pilot who drops a 500lb bomb in a civilian suburb is a terrorist.

Totally disagree. When we drop a bomb on whatever, it is generally either in retaliation or to go after armys or people that are known threats to our well being. How were the people in the world trade center any type of threat to Bin Laden?

Why didnt Bin Laden crash the planes into an army base? or a military outpost or whatever? Why the fuck did he have to go after such a large target populated by civilians? You know why? Because he is nothing more than a coward who preys on those unable to defend themselves.

So, with that said, we are different than terrorists. We do not purposely target innocent civilians with the hopes of taking thousands of them out in one shot.

[TomAiello 25]

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...My thoughts on the huge disparity between the level of cultural development between the west and middle-east aren't centered on what has happened in the last 50 years.

I'd love to hear them. But I admit I rather suspect that your thoughts on the cultural development of the middle east aren't going to agree with mine.

Have you, for example, ever heard of Omar Khayyam? Or Ibn Batuta?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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And don't bother pointing out that not EVERY middle-eastern country is like that -- some of them HAVE had differing levels of western influence, largely to their benefit.

Some western nations have also had varying levels of influence from other places, the middle east among them. They are invariable better off as a resuit. Every culture/country/people/place has good and bad points. Cultural exchange enriches us all by letting us pick the good parts of various cultures.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[crozby 0]

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Picking up on this specific point...
Let's say that a person is at an ATM late at night and is robbed, shot in the head and killed for his money.

Now let's say that a person is at an ATM late at night, and, with robbery as the motive, she is abducted into a van, taken to various ATMS to withdraw money at gunpoint, then has a bag duct taped over her head and is left to suffocate to death in a horrific, torturous way.

I'd be angry at both murders -- but there is no question that if a person is to be murdered, there are more, and less, humane ways to go about it, and the second example is far more heinous and hideous.

Your absolutely correct. To any third-party like you and me there is a big difference. But to the people that matter - the relatives and friends of the dead - it is less relevant.

A mother of a bombed son in Baghdad isn't gong to be sat around thanking Allah that at least her son wasn't decapitated.

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Pshyeah, except, I guess, for the families who send their loved ones off to death as suicide bombers, and they get their $25,000 reward. I guess those people fall into a different category, huh?

So much for your theory that everyone who dies leaves behind someone who's paralyzed with grief over it.

You're getting your filthy arabs all mixed up. Understandable because they all look the same with those hats on.

Its Palestinians who are suicide bombers. Iraqis don't do suicide bombing. But both groups are brown and have towels on their heads, so don't beat yourself up - it's an easy mistake to make.

I'ts like Americans and Canadians. The fucking same thing. Both pastey white, both like guns too much, both fat as fuck, and both have no fucking idea when it comes to cultures and peoples outside their national borders.

Racial stereotypes - don't they just bring that black and white world crisply in to focus?

[Botellines 0]

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Totally disagree. When we drop a bomb on whatever, it is generally either in retaliation or to go after armys or people that are known threats to our well being.

My guess is that the attack to the twin tower was a retaliation for the policies taken for years in the middle east. Specially the unconditional support to Israel. And you just said that retaliation is a valid reason to accept collateral damage, right?
The twin towers was the simbol of capitalism, that is what they aimed at, the rest was collateral damage. If they really had wanted to kill many many more people, they could have striked a football stadium, a nuclear plant, etc.

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How were the people in the world trade center any type of threat to Bin Laden?

They weren´t, that is the reason why that terror attack was so despisable. How is the Innocent Iraky who only want to be left alone a threat to the U.S

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Why didnt Bin Laden crash the planes into an army base? or a military outpost or whatever?

because he doesn´t give a shit about collateral damage. Unfortunately, the U.S is doing the same thing.

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Why the fuck did he have to go after such a large target populated by civilians? You know why? Because he is nothing more than a coward who preys on those unable to defend themselves.

I agree with you. However, if whoever prey on those unable to defend themselves is a coward? Aren´t you calling the U.S air force pilots cowards? The Irakies at ground level can hardly defend themselves from a 500lb bomb droped from above.

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So, with that said, we are different than terrorists.

Well, with that said, you are only proving my point.

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We do not purposely target innocent civilians with the hopes of taking thousands of them out in one shot.

Is that the only distinction that you can make beetwen the U.S army and the terrorist?
so the only diference is that the U.S army kill enemies knowing that will also kill civilians, and the terrorist kill enemies and civilians without making distinctions. (and they shouldn´t nowadays because there shouldn´t be U.S civilians in Irak at this time)

If the diference beetwen the U.S army and a terrorist lies in the semantic definition of terrorist, maybe the U.S doesn´t have the moral high ground, don´t you think?

[funks 1]

reply]***

I'ts like Americans and Canadians. The fucking same thing. Both pastey white, both like guns too much, both fat as fuck, and both have no fucking idea when it comes to cultures and peoples outside their national borders.

Racial stereotypes - don't they just bring that black and white world crisply in to focus?

[crozby 0]

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But "they", meaning people of the middle east, are not nearly as intellectually or culturally developed as "us", meaning people of the west.

Not even close.

Yeah, its pretty obvious from your posts that you are significantly superior than all people from the middle east, both culturally and intellectually.

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Hey, don't take my word for it -- ask any middle-eastern woman that can't work, vote, speak out, choose a husband, or even show her face in public without getting beaten. Pets in the western world get better treatment.

You really do have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Iraq didn't shit on women. Women went to school and were allowed out and had jobs. Saddam had women in senior positions in his administration.

The fact that you can come out with wank like this: "Hey, don't take my word for it -- ask any middle-eastern woman that can't work, vote, speak out, choose a husband, or even show her face in public without getting beaten. Pets in the western world get better treatment. "
kind of voids any argument you have that Arabs are less intelligent or less educated than you are.

Take a holiday. Go abroad. Visit some foreign places and converse with the locals.

[Botellines 0]

I doubt it. seeing a black guy on the street or meeting a spanish doesn´t count as caming into contact with other nationalities.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Its Palestinians who are suicide bombers. Iraqis don't do suicide bombing. But both groups are brown and have towels on their heads

Neither one of them wears towels on their heads.

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both fat as fuck

Last time I checked I wasn't fat. But there are obese people that's for sure. It all depends on where you live and what sort of activities you do when your work day is done (some watch TV and get fat, some get out and exercise and stay fit).

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have no fucking idea when it comes to cultures and peoples outside their national borders

North America is populate with people from all over the world. You are actually hurting yourself more than helping your arguments with claims like this. Yes North Americans could be doing a better job with educating themselves about what is happening outside of their own borders. But once again blanket statements like this discredits your arguments.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Ever been to Toronto? How about NYC? There are tons of different foriegn nationalities in both of these respective cities.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[funks 1]

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I doubt it. seeing a black guy on the street or meeting a spanish doesn´t count as caming into contact with other nationalities.

Are you being serious? When was the last time you came to the US? When was the last time you walked the streets of DC or NYC or any other big US city for that matter? You really have no idea what you are talking about.

[rhino 0]

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Fuck them, I hope they rot in hell with their suicide-murderer family members.

Well said.

[rhino 0]

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Regardless of whether the US intentionally targets civilians, we know that many civilians have died in Iraq.

That is what happens when insurgents hide behind women and children. When they put a gun in a 12 year old boys hand and hold a knife to his moms throat saying "shoot the Americans or she dies". As the boy is struck with 7.62mm rounds from soldiers defending themselves "Simple trying to live to get back to their families" the insurgents take photos "after taking the machine gun out of his hands" throw more garbage propaganda on tv stating American and Coalition soldiers are killing innocent civilians when they themselves are to blame for the deaths.

If you don't believe this is happening YOU ARE WITHOUT COMMON SENSE.

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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because he doesn´t give a shit about collateral damage. Unfortunately, the U.S is doing the same thing.

Wow.... Unbelievable.. Who the hell are you?

Rhino

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey Rhino

Make no mistake. The United States with the help of Britian did invade Iraq. Whether it was for WMD (which have yet to be found) or to remove Saddam (who was an evil person, but don't forget who created him, the USA back in the late 70s and early 80s). Or maybe it was to take control of Iraq's oil or better yet to win lucrative reconstruction contracts for GWBs networks of friends. Or how about all of the above? Likely the case, but money talks and GWBs friends are getting richer at the expense of Iraqi, American and British lives (not to mention all the other foreign contractors. many of whom have been murdered).

The bottom line is that the USA did invade Iraq and you can't blame a certain group of Iraqis for trying to defend their way of life. Put yourself in their shoes for a second. If some other nation invaded the USA to free the USA people from the ruler that this other nation didn't like, you can't tell me that you wouldn't be fighting back and fight back in any way that you could.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Remster 24]

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Wow.... Unbelievable..

Comming from the guy who always wants to glass-parking-lot the whole area, thats fucking hillarious!

Remster

[funks 1]

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Hey Rhino

Make no mistake. The United States with the help of Britian did invade Iraq. Whether it was for WMD (which have yet to be found) or to remove Saddam (who was an envil person, but don't forget who created him the USA back in the late 70s and early 80s). Or maybe it was to take control of Iraqs oil or to win lucrative reconstruction contracts for GWBs networks of friends. Or how about all of the above (likely the case, but money talks and GWBs friends are getting rich at the expense of Iraqi, American and British lives).

The bottom line is that the USA did invade Iraq and you can't blame a certain group of Iraqis for trying to defend their way of life. Put yourself in their shoes for a second. If some other nation invaded the USA to free the USA people from the ruler that this other nation didn't like, you can't tell me that you wouldn't be fighting back and fight back in any way that you could.

Why is it then the majority of Iraqi civilians greeted our troops with open arms? Why is it the only opposition that we originally came up against was the iraqi military? Why is it the Iraqis were seen celebrating the downfall of their govt in their streets?

Sorry, but we have lost many lives for the sole purpose of saving iraqi lives. We stepped up to save a country that was being destroyed by a dictator.

A nice thank you would be appreciated

But instead, our troops have to worry about whether or not that civilian walking down the street is going to shoot them the second they turn their backs.

I still vote for unleashing holy hell on all those fuckers.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Why didnt Bin Laden crash the planes into an army base? or a military outpost or whatever?
------------------------------------------------------------------------because he doesn´t give a shit about collateral damage. Unfortunately, the U.S is doing the same thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------In Reply To
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why the fuck did he have to go after such a large target populated by civilians? You know why? Because he is nothing more than a coward who preys on those unable to defend themselves.
------------------------------------------------------------------------I agree with you. However, if whoever prey on those unable to defend themselves is a coward? Aren´t you calling the U.S air force pilots cowards? The Irakies at ground level can hardly defend themselves from a 500lb bomb droped from above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------In Reply To
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, with that said, we are different than terrorists.
------------------------------------------------------------------------Well, with that said, you are only proving my point.
------------------------------------------------------------------------In Reply To
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do not purposely target innocent civilians with the hopes of taking thousands of them out in one shot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------Is that the only distinction that you can make beetwen the U.S army and the terrorist?
so the only diference is that the U.S army kill enemies knowing that will also kill civilians, and the terrorist kill enemies and civilians without making distinctions. (and they shouldn´t nowadays because there shouldn´t be U.S civilians in Irak at this time)

If the diference beetwen the U.S army and a terrorist lies in the semantic definition of terrorist, maybe the U.S doesn´t have the moral high ground, don´t you think?

Well I would say there is a difference. Al Quaeda DELIBERATELY attacked civilians. It wasn't collateral damage for them, it was the specific target.
But obivously you think this is a trivial distinction.

hmmm. well then let's just take your moral relativism to its logical conclusion.

since all wars throughout history have resulted in civilian deaths, I guess that means that all soldiers who ever fought are the moral equivalent of Al Quaeda, even the ones who fought against the fascists in WWII.

shame on all of us, I guess. Apparently there was no real difference between the Allies and the Nazis.


(edited to add: By the way, I personally disagreed with the invasion of Iraq, but the above argument is a separate issue.)

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Frenchy68 0]

But "they", meaning people of the middle east, are not nearly as intellectually or culturally developed as "us", meaning people of the west***

Hummm. How do you measure cultural development? Richter scale? God forbid these guys came up with our numbering system.
I think comments like that illustrate why 20 years from now we'll still be where we are today (and I know, I know, "We didn't start it.........")

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Why is it the only opposition that we originally came up against was the iraqi military

Huh ... most of the Iraqi military chose not to fight. So did you ever wonder why the Iraqis chose to not pick up a gun when America invaded their country? Did it ever occur to you that maybe they are smarter than you give them credit for and that they knew that they would die if they tried to fight a conventional war with the most powerful military in the history of mankind? Yes I am sure many Iraqis are happy that Saddam is gone. But that doesn't mean that they are going to instantly like America and Americas way of life. Dude it's a different world over their, with a different culture and maybe they don't want to have a McDonalds built on the corners of their streets. Why is it that America must force their way of life on other nations?

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I still vote for unleashing holy hell on all those fuckers.

Dude with war mongering comments like that, is it any wonder why the Islamic world feels threatened by the west. Yes there are some pretty fucked up people over there who do not value life the same way we in west do. But wanting to wage war on them isn't going to help bring peace to the world.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Botellines 0]

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Ever been to Toronto? How about NYC? There are tons of different foriegn nationalities in both of these respective cities.

Unfortunately, i haven´t been in Toronto. However i have been in New york, lived for a short while in London, Edinburgh, and currently live in Madrid. I assure you that no matter how much inmigration you get from other countries if you don´t actually do something to mingle with them, you will not learn a bit from their culture. So that a country receives people from all sort of nacionalities doesn´t make automatically the natives culturally diverse. That is what i meant.

[whiterabbit 0]

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Hey Rhino

Make no mistake. The United States with the help of Britian did invade Iraq. Whether it was for WMD (which have yet to be found) or to remove Saddam (who was an envil person, but don't forget who created him the USA back in the late 70s and early 80s). Or maybe it was to take control of Iraqs oil or to win lucrative reconstruction contracts for GWBs networks of friends. Or how about all of the above (likely the case, but money talks and GWBs friends are getting rich at the expense of Iraqi, American and British lives).

The bottom line is that the USA did invade Iraq and you can't blame a certain group of Iraqis for trying to defend their way of life. Put yourself in their shoes for a second. If some other nation invaded the USA to free the USA people from the ruler that this other nation didn't like, you can't tell me that you wouldn't be fighting back and fight back in any way that you could.

Why is it then the majority of Iraqi civilians greeted our troops with open arms? Why is it the only opposition that we originally came up against was the iraqi military? Why is it the Iraqis were seen celebrating the downfall of their govt in their streets?

Sorry, but we have lost many lives for the sole purpose of saving iraqi lives. We stepped up to save a country that was being destroyed by a dictator.

A nice thank you would be appreciated

But instead, our troops have to worry about whether or not that civilian walking down the street is going to shoot them the second they turn their backs.

I still vote for unleashing holy hell on all those fuckers.

funks, every time you or somebody else repeats your position that we need to "unleash holy hell on all those fuckers," you are essentially legitimizing the actions of terrorists such as those that flew airplanes into the WTC. Your experience with the entire country of people who you would commit genocide against is likely limited to what the media has shown you. By refusing to distinguish between terrorists and civilians (the latter greatly outnumber the former), you are claiming that those "fuckers" are SO EVIL and the threat that they pose to us is SO GREAT that no price is too high to pay to eliminate them.

What do you think is going through a terrorist's mind when he makes the decision to sacrifice his own life for what he sees as the betterment of his country/religion? How are we different from these people when we condemn the actions of the 9/11 suicide bombers and in the same breath justify the deaths of 10,000 innocents?

I am not making the claim that we are necessarily "no better than terrorists." Civilian casualties are a terrible, terrible side effect of war, however, and we can not afford to be nonchalant about that -- or we really are no better than those who cheered when the towers fell on 9/11.

It's ok to be emotional about things like terrorism, but don't let emotions cloud rational thought. Those who would see the US reduced to a smoking hole are real people with real emotions who have allowed themselves to become blinded to the fact that there are better ways to solve problems than violence against innocents.