Catholics with wheat allergies condemned to hell.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Does the bible provide for the creation of a Pope, and say that he will be the final arbiter of the right and wrong way to worship God and Jesus? I'm asking because I honestly don't know -- but I suspect not.

Dang ... this is scary. I actually agree with something PJ said.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Frenchy68 0]

here are no fixed dates or even "standard" calendars***
It seems that most religious (especially Christian) holidays have either a pagan background, or/and dates based on sun/lunar/harvest landmarks.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Muenkel 0]

Ivan,

You can take over this one. You're doing a much better job than I am.

_________________________________________
Chris

[AggieDave 6]

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So, man is the perfect image of god, but man is corruptible and indeed has been corrupted by the forces of evil

Due to man's own freewill. Man fucked up. Then Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden. After that they fucked up, down, sideways, upside down...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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It seems that most religious (especially Christian) holidays have either a pagan background, or/and dates based on sun/lunar/harvest landmarks.

That's because they are.

In early Christianity, when cultures were "converted" they used the same holidays, just switching the gods being worshipped. It made the transition between religions easier to swallow for the average person. It also made Christianity an easier sale.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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In my opinion, religion is just a way to communicate with God, let say is a "language", in which no one is right or wrong, I always use this example, let say we have an apple, and there are 3 men from different countries, one speaks English, one French and the other Spanish, they will call the apple in their native tongues...which one is REALLY saying the REAL name of the apple NONE, because they speak different languages, but regardless of that the APPLE will remain an apple.

The problem with saying "no one is right or wrong" and then using the apple analogy is that it does not apply aptly.

We are talking about how to determine what is meant by the so-called word of god, when it is written confusingly, and even contradictorily. This is not an issue of everyone seeing the same object before them and having different names for it! This is about determining rules for living and worshiping. One guy says that bible passage A means one thing, and another guy says passage A means a different thing altogether. GOD MEANT A SPECIFIC THING. If one guy got it right, anyone who didn't have the same conclusion that he had has it WRONG. And if neither got it right, they're both wrong. Is it arguable that god gave his word but consents to having it interpreted in 8 million different ways? Or do you think he's kinda pissed that people have TWISTED it to mean what suits them?! Because that is truly what happened, if you wanna be realistic about it. You said, "because someone 'didn't agree' with certain points of view and "created" a "custom" religion to fit them." As soon as you take god's word and make a variation on it, now it's YOUR word, or "god's word as twisted to suit YOU." That's not nearly the same as living by god's word. That's avoiding the parts that you don't feel like living under, and agreeing to live under only those that you don't find unpleasant. Like being a good churchgoing catholic but having screwed 14 girls before you ever got married. "Oh, god isn't really upset about stuff like that." No, that's YOUR interpretation, but how do YOU know god isn't really pissed off about it? It IS against his rules, you know. But people cherry-pick the rules they want to let themselves be governed by. That's not truly adhering to the word of god.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Frenchy68 0]

My point exactly.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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So, man is the perfect image of god, but man is corruptible and indeed has been corrupted by the forces of evil

Due to man's own freewill. Man fucked up. Then Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden. After that they fucked up, down, sideways, upside down...

I didn't fuck up. It's SICK and FUCKED UP to judge ME, and hold eternal punishment over MY head, because some alleged ancestors were the ones who sinned.

Dude, you wouldn't accept being punished for some theft that your grandfather committed 70 years ago... why would you accept -- and think proper -- god judging you for what Adam and Eve are supposed to have done? Don't you think that is a fucked up, sick way for a god to be? He's supposed to be just, fair, righteous, loving, forgiving... and yet he visits the sins of our ancestors on us AT BIRTH?!

A god like that can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned. I'll take a shit on such a god before I'll worship it. That's just NOT RIGHT.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[AggieDave 6]

Hold on their scooter, I'm just telling folks what it says, not trying to defend it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Scooter?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[AggieDave 6]

A Ron White-ism. Its fun to use, try it in everyday conversation. That and Get-r-done.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Muenkel 0]

I haven't used the name Scooter. I usually say "Hold on there Skippy."

_________________________________________
Chris

[AggieDave 6]

Give scooter a try, it'll feel refreshing.

Man, this is some seriously good thread drift.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Muenkel 0]

I agree, Scooter's good. It might even be better than Skippy. Yep, Scooter it is.

_________________________________________
Chris

[CrazyIvan 0]

I'll reply to that one later...I'm on my way home now.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[Shotgun 1]

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That kind of thing just proves it to be a system of convenience, existing merely for mental comfort against the strain of existing on an inscrutable plane and knowing essentially nothing about who we are and why we're even here.

I agree... Though I don't think it is proven... but I do agree that religion was most likely developed as a way to soothe the discomfort of "knowing essentially nothing about who we are and why we're even here," as Jeffrey put it. It can be uncomfortable at times... but it also makes the mystery that much more interesting.

[Shotgun 1]

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Give scooter a try, it'll feel refreshing.

"Scooter" was pretty funny. I'll have to try that one sometime too...

My mom used to have a crazy little dog named Scooter.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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That kind of thing just proves it to be a system of convenience, existing merely for mental comfort against the strain of existing on an inscrutable plane and knowing essentially nothing about who we are and why we're even here.

I agree... Though I don't think it is proven... but I do agree that religion was most likely developed as a way to soothe the discomfort of "knowing essentially nothing about who we are and why we're even here," as Jeffrey put it. It can be uncomfortable at times... but it also makes the mystery that much more interesting.

What I don't like is when people take the huge leap from keeping that comfort system because it provides that comfort to asserting that they really have mapped out god, the universe and everything. I want to shake them and say, "Don't you remember, this is all just an illusion, to fool yourself into feeling some control and understanding over your reality. It's not REALLY the way the universe is constructed -- we don't KNOW that!"

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Zenister 0]

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So, man is the perfect image of god, but man is corruptible and indeed has been corrupted by the forces of evil

Due to man's own freewill. Man fucked up. Then Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden. After that they fucked up, down, sideways, upside down...

per christian theology, Man was designed to 'fuck up' it isnt as if God were unaware of the flaws he built in his creation, or the temptations he placed before them....there is something pathalogical in a God who sets up unavoidable 'traps' for his loved creations...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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So, man is the perfect image of god, but man is corruptible and indeed has been corrupted by the forces of evil

Due to man's own freewill. Man fucked up. Then Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden. After that they fucked up, down, sideways, upside down...

per christian theology, Man was designed to 'fuck up' it isnt as if God were unaware of the flaws he built in his creation, or the temptations he placed before them....there is something pathalogical in a God who sets up unavoidable 'traps' for his loved creations...

Thank you! That's exactly my point. I've stated that here in SC numerous times. No one ever really comes up with an adequate rebuttal.

Awareness of this truth raises the spectre that god just created us to amuse himself, like setting up an ant farm and watching them piddle around, then maybe flooding it, or shaking it, introducing a competing insect species to fight with.

Everything we are and can be and can do is directly the result of god, and the way he made us. (I say this hypothetically since I don't even believe in a god, or that he made us.) So if he wants to punish us for succumbing to the weaknesses he built into us, that's fucked up and I won't respect or capitulate to it.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[billvon 2,476]

>We're talking about GOD, who has the means to make his rules not
> only KNOWN by all, but UNDERSTOOD by all. He has the means to
> have a glowing book of his rules appear in the midst of any human
> settlement, readable even by the illiterate, if he so chose.

Well, your god might well have the means or inclination to do so. But that assumes the traditional view of god as a big guy with white hair who sits at some IFR-only altitude on a cloudy throne and zaps people who he doesn't like, and who is always making a list and checking it twice as to who gets into heaven. I don't make that assumption.

>I say that it is really freaky that despite all of that, members of each
> religious persuasion, aware of all the other types of religions,
> instead of doubting ALL of them, cling to THEIRS and insist it must
> be the right one.

That is the nature of humanity, not religion. Look how people do that with political parties, and sports teams, and sports they participate in. No suprise they do it with religion too.

>Then there are people I've known who spent years, decades,
>believing in one religion, only to convert to another -- apparently
> they think that the new one explains things much better. Or maybe
> the rules are more comfortable to live by, I dunno.

Or the religion just plain works better for them - which, in the end, is the true measure of any belief system.

>OR, they adopt a weird, personalized, customized AMALGAM of the
> several religions. Now they really can't be said to be of any particular
> religious persuasion, and how valid is the freako hybrid belief
> system they now have?

As valid as anyone else's. It's as much a valid system as the traditional orthodox jewish religion, or as atheism, or as reformed sufism.

>That kind of thing just proves it to be a system of convenience,
> existing merely for mental comfort against the strain of existing on
> an inscrutable plane and knowing essentially nothing about who we
> are and why we're even here.

If you believe religion to be a mere opiate of the masses, you're missing an awful lot. It's like claiming that skydiving is all about risking death, or that people want to own guns because they like to kill people. And sure, some skydivers/gun owners are like that. But if you make such assumptions, you miss an awful lot of what's really going on.

There is no mystical competition to see who is the most right. No one is going to have a god-election, winner take all. The religions that work are those that allow people to believe in a moral framework that works for them, with no god/one god/many gods as the ultimate authority, however you define authority. That definition may range from god being nothing, to god being Planck's Constant, to god being the monobloc, all the way up to god being just like your dad. And many of those concepts of god do NOT include him sitting in judgement of anyone.

You can claim that god is just like Zeus; that strawman is easy to tear down. But you limit yourself by believing that's the only form god can take to people.

[skydyvr 0]

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per christian theology, Man was designed to 'fuck up' it isnt as if God were unaware of the flaws he built in his creation, or the temptations he placed before them....there is something pathalogical in a God who sets up unavoidable 'traps' for his loved creations...

Thank you! That's exactly my point. I've stated that here in SC numerous times. No one ever really comes up with an adequate rebuttal.

[CrazyIvan 0]

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there is something pathalogical in a God who sets up unavoidable 'traps' for his loved creations...

Then again, God is the creator and can do and undo ANYTHING, let me illustrate with a little analogy, "Saving Private Ryan" good movie right?, ok, so, why the "hero" has to die at the end? why some of the soldiers who were helping to rescue Ptv. Ryan had to die? is in this case the "writer" a pathological case? NO, he "created" those characters and put them in those situations, in fact, if he wanted he could make them "dissapear".

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm sorry Ivan (or can I just call you Crazy). I don't buy it. This perfect God is often said to have created things exactly as intended and that we need to just accept things as the way they were supposed to be. But what about when a person is created with certain ... I don't want to get too specific here ... so let's just say created a certain way by this perfect God. But inside this person feels different. Something is wrong. Some mistake was made maybe? But not according to the people who believe in this perfect God as he made them just the way they were supposed to be made despite the fact that this person knows something is wrong.

Of course the hard core religous nut cases out there will say that if someone feels different about something about themselves, then it's actually the Devil who's manipulating their thoughts. LOL ... those nut cases and their obsession with the Devil can be hard to take at times. Fortunately they are in the minority when it comes to the religous types.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CrazyIvan 0]

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...But inside this person feels different. Something is wrong. Some mistake was made maybe? But not according to the people who believe in this perfect God as he made them just the way they were supposed to be made despite the fact that this person knows something is wrong.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.