Please explain this video to me

[bch7773 0]

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You're simply wrong when you assume that my concern over events in Iraq means I don't like the US. Equating the questioning of the actions of a state with disloyalty to said state belongs back in the past behind the iron curtain, not here and now in a democratic society.

amen to that.
and don't feel alone, i was told that i support terrorism by someone on here because i questioned the practice of shooting a wounded man

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Ron 7]

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If we were on a military forum I think you'd be correct in lambasting contributors without a military background, but this is a skydiving forum and that attitude is out of place here and is more than a little condescending given that you have no idea of my background (at least I don't think you do!).

The only thing I'm gonna say is this.

I think that no matter what the forum is....You should know something about the subect before you judge it...don't you agree? I mean I know squat about playing guitar, so I don't talk about playing the guitar. I don't freefly, so I don't give freefly advice...I have been in the military (82d Airborne Infantry) So, I DO know something about US ROE and US troopers. The funny thing about this forum (Which I must admit is the only one I am on) is that it does not matter what the subject is...Everyone thinks their opinion should be considered as equal to everyone elses...This is the only place where a guy with no Military Exp...(I don't know if you have any...do you?) Thinks that his take on a military operation should be as valuable as a guy with 20+ years...The same thing is done on here with skydiving..A guy with 100 jumps thinks his opinion should carry the same weight as a guy with 10,000 jumps....Thats just not true.

You have the right to an opinion, but the source should be considered.

I would not take skydiving advice from a guy with 10 jumps, tactical advice from a guy that has never stacked on a room, or political advice from a 18 year old with stars in his eyes.

I don't know how much of this applies to you, but it is an epidemic on here...People with very little exp thinking their experience is equal to everyone elses....

Its just not true.

From your take on the events it seems to me that you have never been in the military...Otherwise you would understand that while shooting a wounded man is wrong....Most likley you would do it anyway unless he had intel you needed...Its human nature.


But please, tell me...what military exp do you have?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[metalslug 31]

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...This is the only place where a guy with no Military Exp...(I don't know if you have any...do you?) Thinks that his take on a military operation should be as valuable as a guy with 20+ years...The same thing is done on here with skydiving..A guy with 100 jumps thinks his opinion should carry the same weight as a guy with 10,000 jumps....Thats just not true.

Lt. General Robert Gard expressed an opinion on the videos, in his capacity as a military consultant and a man who has seen action in almost every US campaign since Korea and Vietnam.
Quade was quick to suggest here that, despite the general's obviously superior knowledge and experience, he may be a "pandering asshat".

Could the same be true of experienced skydivers when expressing opinions in their field of expertise ?

[beej 0]

Due to the 2nd video being edited, we'll never know the true scenario. *Could* it have been like this?:

Rifleman Doe had been deployed a week earlier to the war zone. He was fit, well trained as any U.S. marine is, but he was still in a state of shock from what he'd witnessed a couple of hours earlier. His buddy had been shot in the neck. Doe is still reeling from the shock of hearing the sickening sound of a high velocity round hitting flesh. No training can prepare you for the real thing he ponders.
Doe and the rest of his team are yet again under fire. This war is different from the war movies he was raised on he thinks. There are no uniforms to differentiate, they ride past you and your buddys in ambulances, they show a flag then shoot. Doe is pumping with adrenalin, he's scared and slightly shaking, but the adrenalin helps keep him highly alert and focused.

The team take cover behind a yard wall. Doe seemingly spends and age plucking up courage to peek over the wall, he finally quickly looks, and he sees a combatant with an Ak47. Rifleman x, is dashing for the protection of the wall. Doe isn't quick enough, the Rifleman is hit in the stomach before Doe can get off his first shots.

The Iraqi falls from behind the wall, the same wall that was shielding most of his body a second earlier. (**now in video scene**) The iraqi is now in open ground, the marines are now all in a frenzy, the iraqi has to be finished off because on Doe's first glimpse at the man 5 seconds earlier, he had seen two grenades on his chest strap. The iraqi tries to raise himself - why? To try to raise his arms in surrender? To pull the pin from a grenade and clamp his hand on the grenade in the hope an unlucky marine will go to his aid? Doe has to react in a split second, he has to make a decision.

Doe fires, but misses badly due to a slight shake in his hands. He fires again, this time the iraqi slumps, lifeless on the ashphalt. His buddys cheer, since revenge is sweet in the chaos of the adrenalin arena, where you could be the next dead soldier in the twinkling of an eye.

====================================================

OK I just fabricated the above. However, it points out that video footage from either side, NEVER portrays the true context of the situation.

Additionally, in defense of soldiers getting 'carried away', it is difficult to expect to train soldiers to kill, then expect them to be able to just 'turn it off' immediatly.

----------------------------------------------------
If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)--

[quade 3]

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Quade was quick to suggest here that, despite the general's obviously superior knowledge and experience, he may be a "pandering asshat".

I offered that as an explanation of why he answered the way he did as a paid consultant to an organization outside of the U.S..

Most paid consultants have an opinion. Most are paid for that opinion. Few are paid for an opinion that does not agree with the organization that hires them.

I think if you asked Ollie North and Wesley Clarke their opinion of how the Iraq war is going you'd get two very different answers. The people that paid them will, naturally, think their guy has the correct answer and the other guy is pandering to their client. Which, they -may- in fact be.

Another option which I also floated is that the guy is an asshat.

Over the course of a person's career they may perform superbly, like say for instance, Donald Rumsfeld. Once out of military service, -some- folks hired as military and political consultants seem to have some axe to grind, take their ball and go play somewhere they can do the most damage -- namely, as a military or political consultant. Doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about, only that they can parlay their previous status for some agenda. In other words -- be an asshat.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 7]

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Lt. General Robert Gard expressed an opinion on the videos, in his capacity as a military consultant and a man who has seen action in almost every US campaign since Korea and Vietnam.
Quade was quick to suggest here that, despite the general's obviously superior knowledge and experience, he may be a "pandering asshat".

Could the same be true of experienced skydivers when expressing opinions in their field of expertise ?

Anything is possible...But given the choice of listening to some guy with 10,000 jumps opinion, or some guy with 100...Well I'm gonna listen to the guy with 10,000...As Quade pointed out many that you can't always trust a paid person...So while I may listen to the guy with 10,000 jumps...Im not going to automaticly buy the same gear he endorses...But I'm sure not going to make my choices off of some guy with 100 jumps opinions. He really knows nothing compared to the guy with 10,000 jumps, even if they guy with 10,000 jumps has an agenda. The same thing for political parties....While the Dems or Repubs might have good things to say....Most times its going to be the normal part line.

I do find it funny that people confuse that the right to have an opinion, and the value of that opinion are the same.

A guy with no or little expereince does NOT have the same validity as a guy with much more experience.

You should also understand that just cause you don't agree with the experienced guy, or like his delivery...It does not make his opinion less valid or untrue.

Like I said....Feel free to express an opinion...But understand no one has to care about your opinion, and if you don't have a clue of what you are talking about....Don't expect people to listen.

Another poster in this thread summed up the second video nicely...You can expect a trooper who is under fire to go from killer to pacifist just cause the guy that was just trying to kill you got hit.

Real life does not work that way.

Personal example...Today I just did a Demo for a friends Bday party. Big open field (So big that airplanes have landed there.) I was on a professional Demo team for three years. Have over 3,000 jumps. Performed on well over 100 live demos, and had over 600 practice jumps for demos. After I landed today...I was still nervious.

That kid in the video I bet was scarred shitless. I doubt you ever get used to someone shooting at you and trying to kill you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 6]

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Armchair Ranger is easy and fun when you are safe behind a computer.

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I'm stealing that line!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

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If it makes any difference I didn't watch the video I read the report the quad posted from ABC. I don't like propaganda of any kind

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I did watch the video...
in fact a better quality version that is available on the net...

In it you can clearly see the 'wounded' combatant is almost
literally cut in half...

if you look at the images of him crawling to cover
you can see he dragging all his squishy parts behind him...

The gunner did the guy a favor with the 2nd volley.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rhino 0]

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I admire the way that you guys can justify whatever your soldiers do

I admire the way a bunch of PUSSIES can criticize every thing our soldiers fo from the comforts of their computer desks.. STFU...

Rhino

[quade 3]

Rhino --

I know he has you and a few people here pissed off, but let's not push the Forum Rules too far.

Folks here that are NOT from the U.S. --

Understand that when you call U.S. soldiers names . . . you're speaking directy to some of them right here on this web site. If not them, then a lot of their friends. The U.S. has a LOT of military and ex-military skydivers. So, they -do- have a tendancy to take it kinda personal if you're implying that they're all bad guys. Pretty understandable if you ask me.

Everyone --

Take a deep breath and try to talk about this without resorting too much anger toward each other. I think this is a very legitimate topic and it sure would be nice to educate folks rather than just get them pissed off.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhino 0]

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OK I just fabricated the above. However, it points out that video footage from either side, NEVER portrays the true context of the situation.

Additionally, in defense of soldiers getting 'carried away', it is difficult to expect to train soldiers to kill, then expect them to be able to just 'turn it off' immediatly.

I like your post..

As a Marine I can tell you that Infantry Marines are indeed trained to kill... That is their job... It's kill or be killed... No mercy... 100% balls to the walls it's them or me... They have a dirty, nasty, tiring, underappreciated job to do.. I am so VERY VERY proud of our soldiers... They are heroes that are doing the best that the can while in the closest environment to hell that can be imagined... Urban combat in a country full of people that either hate them, or have the wrong impression of why they are there...

I'm damned proud of them... The courage that they LIVE on a daily basis... Keeping each other alive... Fighting for the Iraqi people's freedom.. Fighting for our freedom...

I am damned proud... They are away from their families and loved ones... Underappreciated and misunderstood... I love and miss my brothers in the corps... I hope they kill every enemy asshole wannabee in that fucking country and free those people once and for all..

I hope everytime they kill a maggot like in that video they do celebrate.. Every enemy asshole they kill puts them a little closer to home........

Subject: THE MARINE


This is a poem being sent from a Marine. For those who read it, his letter is at the bottom of this page to his dad. It makes you truly be thankful for all of our troops.

THE MARINE


We all came together,

Both young and old.

To fight for our freedom,

To stand and be bold.

In the midst of all evil,

We stand our ground,

And we protect our country

From all terror around.

Peace and not war,

Is what some people say.

But I'll give my life,

So you can live the American way.


I give you the right

To talk of your peace,

To stand in your groups,

And protest in our streets.

But still I fight on.

I don't bitch,

I don't whine.

I'm just one of the men

Who is doing your time.

I'm harder than nails,

Stronger than any machine,

I'm the immortal soldier,

I'm a U.S. MARINE!


So stand in my shoes,

And leave from your home.

Fight for the people who hate you,

With the protests they've shown.

Fight for the stranger,

Fight for the young,

So they all may have,

The great freedom you've won.

Fight for the sick,

Fight for the poor.

Fight for the cripple,

Who lives next door.

But when your time comes,

Do what I've done.

For if you stand up for freedom

You'll stand when the fight's done.


~Corporal Aaron M. Gilbert~

~UNITED STATES MARINE~

~ 'USS SAIPAN, PERSIAN GULF~



MARCH 23, 2003

HEY DAD, DOWN HERE. Do me a favor and label this "THE MARINE" and send it to everybody on your distribution list. Even leave this paragraph in it. I want this rolling all over the U.S. I want every home reading it. Every eye to see it. And every heart to feel it. So can you please send this out for me? I would but I am sorta on the USS SAIPAN and my e-mail time isn't that long. You know what Dad, I wondered what it would be like to truly understand what JFK said in his inaugural speech, "When the time comes to lay down my life for my country, I do not cower from this responsibility, I welcome it." Well, now I know. And I do, Dad, I welcome the opportunity to do what I do. Even though I have left behind a beautiful wife, and I will miss the birth of our first born child, I would do it 70 times over to fight for the place that God has made for my home. I love you all and I miss you very much. I wish I could be there when my wife has our child, but tell her that I love her, and Lord willing, I will be coming home soon.


~SEMPER, FI.~ ~AARON~


*Please KEEP AARON AND HIS WIFE AND HIS UNBORN CHILD IN YOUR PRAYERS!

AND PLEASE, PASS IT ON!!

[rhino 0]

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"I consider this inexcusable. This didn’t happened in the center of wild combat. This was the cold-blooded murder of a severely wounded person."

Fuck the General... He was in the comfort of a sheltered building when he made that statement.. He wasn't getting his ass shot off..

[kallend 1,651]

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I like your post..

As a Marine I can tell you that Infantry Marines are indeed trained to kill... That is their job... It's kill or be killed... No mercy... 100% balls to the walls it's them or me... They have a dirty, nasty, tiring, underappreciated job to do.. I am so VERY VERY proud of our soldiers... They are heroes that are doing the best that the can while in the closest environment to hell that can be imagined...

I think there's none that do that job better.

I question whether they are the best choice to be operating as a surrogate police force in a civilian setting.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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I question whether they are the best choice to be operating as a surrogate police force in a civilian setting.

No, It is a stupid job to give a bunch of 19 year olds that are well armed and taught to kill.

However, it's not like this is a "normal" police job.

And quite frankly it seems that they are the only choice right now.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bodypilot90 0]

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I admire the way that you guys can justify whatever your soldiers do, no matter how distasteful or against international law it may be.

I bet your father and mother's family was damn glad to see my uncles in ww2. They helped make sure you didn't have to speak german. I come from a long line of family that have served in war and peace time. I lost a uncle in a P-38 on 6-10-44 on a bombing run

http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/P38/blackDay.asp

I lost a 2ed uncle who was in one of the first airborne units just a few days after d-day. My father lied about his age and join the service at 16 and he too spent time protecting europe, he later served in korea for 2 years. I spent time in Germany, Morocco I have a cousin in the 7th cav over in Iraq right now. I happened to think the US military is the finest in the world. If you don't like the way we operate, to bad. Unless you have "walked the wall" or "been under fire" I really don't care what you "admire"

[Zoter 0]

hmmm....i have read all the posts here and whilst I can see both sides of the 'story' regarding the Apache incident...I dont agree with it.....
You cant see a clear intent to point a weapon at the Apache....wouldnt a more appropriate response be to fire warning shots to get these guys to lie down ( which Im sure they would if they could see these 30mm round exploding around them ) and then get some ground backup.
Jeez I dunno...maybe arrest them , confirm if it were weapons or not and if so...get 'intel' from them ( in the US's definative style ..)

In both clips though.....executing a prone , and clearly injured individual who presents no CLEAR threat at the time ( and neither did....they were not desparately trying to aim a rocket launcher or throw a grenade)..........is just sick.
The whoops and yells im afraid just outline the 'amateur' status of the individuals involved. I dont mean that disrespectfully to the majority of pro soldiers....but clearly they were whooping and hollering at the fact they managed to slaughter a clearly injured man.....which I might add...was from behind, less than 50M and still took three single shots to get 1 'on target'.....the only thing missing from that scene were the Soldiers holding a rifle in one hand and a beer in the other....and perhaps one of them taking some pictures.
No matter what that Iraqi just did....soldiers are supposed to be professionals....incapacitate any enemies who stop them from achieving their missio objectives ...yes justifiable.....execute them once they have been incapacitated..??...nope
When you think about it ...not a great deal of difference , in thinking if not methodology, of the Iraqis beheading that poor Nick Berg......he was incapacitated as well...there was no need to murder him other than some weak excuse as well.....I'm sure they thought he was a 'threat' ....a threat to their way of life.

[tkhayes 140]

Placing yourself in a position of authority with awesome power, like the helicopter crew, places also some moral responsibility on you as well.

100-200 years ago, similar parallels could be drawn... "I just wanted to talk to him, but the nigger would not stop running, so I shot him" - it does not make it justified.

We have killed more than 10,000 Iraqi civilians since the start of the war. That tells me that we have made 'many' mistakes like shown in the video - but for all I know, they could have been enemy fighters, it is not clear.

But the point that we seem to regularly make that mistake is disturbing.

How about this?

If we were not in Iraq - we would have killed ZERO Iraqi civilians

And we would not have any dead Amercan soldiers either.

Those people in the video never would have been our enemy to shoot at in the first place, so we would not have been threatened by them and they would sitill be alive today.

And if they really were civilians, I think it would be reasonable to say that they had mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, who probably did not agree (or get a chance to discuss) our 'justification' for the shooting. I bet they are all on our side now..... (sarcasm is sooo hard to put into print)

TK

[Ron 7]

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wouldnt a more appropriate response be to fire warning shots to get these guys to lie down

Or it could cause the guy still in the truck to fire an RPG and kill you. Fact is we don't know what the Helicopter crew did know...And sitting at our desks its easy to second guess them since we are in no risk of being killed. We have the luxury of not being in a life or death situation.

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and then get some ground backup

One story said that ground backup was better than 30 min away....Its not a good idea to hover over a war zone in a 30 million dollar helicopter for 30 min....That kind of target will attract all kinds of guys with RPG's.
Thats a sure way to get your ticket punched.

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The whoops and yells im afraid just outline the 'amateur' status of the individuals involved.

Yep, you think you could have done better? You think you could be 19 years old in a fire fight and watch your buddies get hit, know buddies that are dead...And as soon as this guy gets hit suddenly turn from Rambo to Mother Teresa????? I'm not so sure I could, and if you think you could you are either a PRO soldier, or sick.

Most 19 year olds are not Pro's....Most 30 year olds are not Pro's.

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but clearly they were whooping and hollering at the fact they managed to slaughter a clearly injured man

And they were whooping and hollering to be alive....You ever been in that situation? I bet after your first Mal you will not be able to shut up about it.

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which I might add...was from behind, less than 50M and still took three single shots to get 1 'on target'

Which also goes to show the amount of adrenaline that they had pumping in them. Completely understandable.
But I guess you are better than that? Im not so sure I would be

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soldiers are supposed to be professionals....incapacitate any enemies who stop them from achieving their mission objective

I was taught to destroy the enemy.....Not incapacitate them...Another reason that US soldiers are a poor choice for a police force.

You seem to think that you have the resolve of a professional killer....Well maybe you do, I doubt it, but maybe you do...Most don't.

Was it OK to kill that guy? Well again we don't know the WHOLE story do we? We only have a heavly edited clip....Im not about to make that call off of a clip from CNN. You want to fell free to jump to a choice based off of half of the information...I think its stupid, but feel free...

If it is a case of them just killing an innocent man...Then hey were wrong...

It is completley understandable in my opinion...I would not tell them to do it, but I do understand it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zoter 0]

Ron...there is more speculation in your comments to my points than there is on the whole narrative of 'why' they did what they did....!

I trust my eyes.....I dont care how much information we 'didnt get' what I see is a bunch of trigger happy ' pro soldiers'....(and despite your comments Im sure you would not argue if someone said the US had the most 'professional' army in the world....) shooting a clearly injured and incapacitated man...who , agreed , was probably militia of somekind....
In the back
from <50M
From behind a wall
And celebrating the fact like its some kind of game and some kind of triumph.

Personally ...and I'll stand by this...thats not in any way the actions of a professional bunch of soldiers....no matter how much you try and dress ait up.

Im proud of 'your' and 'my' countries military standing side to side and doing what is without doubt an incredibly difficult job....... but im not proud of scenes like this or those from the prisons.

Just because some of the terrorists insist on acting like barbarians does not mean 'we' should stoop to such levels.........otherwise why the hell is anyone there, we would all be just as bad as each other and in that case its not 'fair' to pass judgement on each other.

[airtwardo 6]

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We have killed more than 10,000 Iraqi civilians since the start of the war.

***
Hi TK!

I'm not disputing those figures...
just wondering the source.

Had a slightly off subject thought while reading this thread.

Some years ago at an air show there was this crusty old
bomber pilot giving an informal talk standing next to "FiFi"
the B29 that was on the show circuit.

Talking about reliability of the ships...payload capacity...missions.
Someone asked about his most memorable sortie, he said there were many.
But one that stands out was the night fire bombing
raid into Tokyo.

Loaded with incendiary bombs, they literally burned the city to the ground in one night. Over 120,000 non combatant civilians were burned to death as a result.

A girl asked him if he ever felt 'bad' about that mission...
The old guy winked at the crowd, and said he would only have felt bad if his bombs were off target.

"If it shortened the war by an hour,
if Marines wouldn't have to storm Japanese beaches....
NO young lady, I never felt bad about killing the enemy."

...It was a decent sized air show, about 12,000 spectators.
I was in the jump bird climbing to altitude looking at the crowd,
couldn't get that thought out of my head...120,000 people!

10 times the number at the show!!!

Can you imagine the discussion coming from a video
of THAT night?



"Can't we all just get along"
-Rodney King

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[tkhayes 140]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

that is one source, albeit biased, but most of their data comes form other good sources,

just search on the keywords to find several sources of data.

[airtwardo 6]

Thanks..!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[crozby 0]

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We have killed more than 10,000 Iraqi civilians since the start of the war. That tells me that we have made 'many' mistakes like shown in the video - but for all I know, they could have been enemy fighters, it is not clear.

At the time we invaded Iraq Saddam was killing many times that number of civilians a year. Isn't it better that significantly fewer Iraqis are dying now per annum than before the war?

[tkhayes 140]

that is pretty lame as justification for a war - in 1996 800,000 people in Rwanda were killed in 100 days and no one even noticed - so obviously the numbers of Iraqis we 'save' is not a good enough reason to go to war. But of course we use that excuse now that there are no WMD's found, and I doubt there ever will be.

Do two wrongs make a right? Are we ever going to just admit that the war was a mistake and then go home, or are we going to try and banaid it to death?

If you want to look at gencide as a reason to go to war, we should be invading dozens of other countries in the world. mistreatment happen sin a lot f places. While I do not agree with it and support efforts to quash it, i do not think invading is necessarily the right reason and certainly NOT in this case.

TK

[crozby 0]

Yeah, but forgetting the politics, less dead Iraqis per annum is a good thing isn't it?