Al-Qaeda BEHEADED U.S. Contractor

[billvon 2,464]

> I think we should announce that those that truelly want freedom and
> peace have one week to go to the US soliders tents to be sent to
> the US to be protected, and then after a week, and the ones that
>truelly want to be free are out, then level the place and kill all the
> terrorist and then take those that wanted freedom and rebuild the
> country for them to govern themselves with the knowledge of that
> everyone is created equal and that terrorism is uncalled for.

If the former USSR had said that to you, would you have packed your bags for the Ukraine?

Iraq is HOME to millions of people. Are you really prepared to kill ten million people who don't want to leave? Ten million men, women and children? If so, you are willing to be far worse than any terrorist has ever been.

>I think that would be a bit better and a lot cheaper than they way we
>are going right now. I mean there are some there that don't deserve
>this at all, but alot that do.

99% just want to live their lives. They are people with families and jobs just like you.

>I am just not sure why people always think that anything can be
>solved by holding hands and siging songs and talking.

Who did the US government have to kill to force you to pay your taxes, or get a driver's license? 99.9% of the things we do every day can be handled without killing thousands of people.

The world is not a nice place, although it's gradually getting better. Want a change in foreign policy? Start with a carrot (trade agreements etc) and back it up with a big stick (a US carrier group.) Want to get rid of WMD's? Same thing. Note that the inspections were working before we pulled out; the inspection teams said they had full access to Iraq and were making progress, and would be able to (within months) determine if Hussein had WMD's. The reason he gave us that access is that we finally made it clear that we were willing to invade if he didn't. An example where the _threat_ of force was enough to get our way. (Then we went and invaded anyway, but that's a different story.)

>There is never going to be world peace because people everywhere
>are different and have differnt views and beliefs.

Not as long as people like you have their way. If you look at the history of the world, it has been a long and bloody one. Wars left and right over everything from religion to type of government to race. But about 60 years ago something really big happened - we gained the ability to destroy the entire world and kill most of the people in it. And somehow, despite a lot of animosity between the two superpowers, we won that war by not fighting it. We began to learn that there is a better way. We are willing to support things like NATO and the UN because we know what the alternative is. It's no fun; big bombs are a lot more fun than politicians droning on in a dozen languages. But it can pay off big.

>Now weather you believe in God and the Bible or not, I can assure
> you that world peace is just a nice dream, but there is no way that
> we can have this as long as we are on this earth.

Of course we can. It's easy to not kill your friends. It's pretty easy not to kill your countrymen, or your friends in Europe and Iraq. It takes some effort to get over our anger, but it can be done, and has been done in many places throughout the world. We live in (relative) harmony with dozens of races here in the US; we tolerate other religions, foods, ideas and philosophies. Now we just have to extend that tolerance to the rest of the world.

>Only if we all were bald and had the same shape and had the same
>of everything, and were not individuals and did not have opinions
>and well we were just like plants. Even animals war with each other.

I am nothing like a Texas farmer, or an eskimo, or a Saskatchewan watchmaker. I have a lot more than a DZ bum and a lot less than Bill Gates. Yet I don't want to kill any of them. We can learn to live with people different than us; we just have to stop killing people for long enough.

>Even animals war with each other.

From a much smarter man than either one of us:

For millions of years mankind lived just like the animals
Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imaginations
We learned to talk . . .
It doesn't have to be like this
All we need to do is make sure we keep talking

[WFFC 1]

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Another thing about this beheading, it is coming out that he was friends with one of the terriorist that crashed the plane into the WTC. Also, his sister is married to an Al-queda opp and he was trying to get in with them. That is why he wasn't scared in that video until they started sawing off his head.

Do you have a link to a story to back this up? I've only seen one article that makes reference to him letting someone borrow his laptop somewhere to check his messages. Just happened to have a 9/11 link. As for the other part, It's not hard to sit there and look not scared and be scared. It's probable that he had no clue what was coming next.

(edit for grammar)

[freeflygoddess 0]

there were talking about it on radio station the other day. I think my dad said it was on the drudge report at one point as well. I just heard the information being talked about on the radio.

They video is sickening and I don't recommend watching it because it is creepy, but I think the thing that most creeped me out was watching it with my dad and hearing the guy crying for his mommy and my dad (an ex-Navy SEAL) saying that "all men who are being tortured cry for their mommies" is what really creeped me out. I knew my dad was a sniper and I knew he must have killed people in his military career, but hearing your dad talk about what men say when they are tortured is more creepier than you realize.

[freeflygoddess 0]

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Iraq is HOME to millions of people. Are you really prepared to kill ten million people who don't want to leave?

I didn't say they had to leave forever, just they had to leave so we can bomb the place, but then again, it wouldn't help any because those terrorists would leave and come back too along with their children who are raised to think that they will get 50 virgins in heaven if they kill themselves while bombing others that oppose them.

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Who did the US government have to kill to force you to pay your taxes, or get a driver's license? 99.9% of the things we do every day can be handled without killing thousands of people.

They killed lots to get the constitution in place and be free from England. If I don't pay my taxes I might as well be killed, I think that would be better than the crap the IRS puts you through.

The thing is we tried to be nice and not war, it didn't work, we have warred with them before and pulled out and it still did not work. Yes there are lots there that are just living their lives like we are but in a completly different way. They can freely beat their women and send them to prison for things they do. They have that right under their laws. There are many there that hate the US and would kill themselves to kill just on US citizen. It is fine to hate us, but it is not find to create terror. I just really doubt that you can sit down and reason with a terrorist. Do you want to? If the president said, "Bill, here is a treaty to ensure peace with Iraq, will you go and talk with Al-Qaeda and get it signed?" Do you really think they will sit down with you and talk. Hell no they will think of some sick way to kill you and film it and post it on the internet, so every US citizen can be scared and think that we should run off and let them keep up their torturing and terrorist acts because it is inhuman to invade a country that is killing millions of their own citizens just because they can.

Should we really just let them continue to live they way they are living right now? Should we allow them to continue to scheme and carry out plans to terrorise us and completly change our ways of living? You know we no longer have the right to go to the airport and sit with our families at the terminals while they wait for their plane. We no longer will be the fist face they see when they get off that plane after a long trip away. Why? because a few people decided to hijak a plane and crash it into a couple of buildings and killed many innocent people, all becasue they wanted to prove a point and scare the crap out of everyone. There are many now that can no longer get on a plane, just because of of those few acts, it changed the lives of everyone everywhere forever. Do the ends justify the means in this case? Why yes they do, they got what they wanted, maybe not 100% but they ultimatly changed the whole world. Do I think that us torturing prizoners justify it self in the long run, yes I do. You have no idea what kind of information they recieved that could have saved the lives of millions includeing yourself. Them beheading that guy that may or may not have been trading information with them, maybe have saved a lot of people as well, he could have been telling them vital information, or just the fact that people seeing that might think twice about going to work or vist the middle east any time soon, and save them from the same fate. You have no idea what would have happend had none of that taken place. What if we just let it all alone after 9/11? What really would have taken place? We might have alot of anthrax going around or someother plauge. You never know.

[billvon 2,464]

> it wouldn't help any because those terrorist would leave and come
> back too along with their children who are raised to think that they
> will get 50 virgins in heaven if they kill themselves while bombing
> others that oppose them.

Right! Just like we teach our kids that you have to kill gays to get into heaven. (It's right there in the bible!)

>The thing is we tried to be nice and not war, it didn't work, we have
>warred with them before and pulled out and it still did not work.

And now we tried war and hey! that didn't work either. Could it be that there are going to be a lot of problems in that region no matter what we do?

>Yes there are lots there that are just living their lives like we are but
> in a completly different way. They can freely beat their women and
> send them to prison for things they do.

So? In the US you can go to jail for owning a gun if the paperwork isn't in order. You can go to jail if you bare your chest in public. Different places, different laws.

>There are many there that hate the US and would kill themselves to
>kill just on US citizen.

There are many right here on this board (yourself included) that think that killing innocent Iraqis is a fine idea. In that way they are very much like us.

>I just really doubt that you can sit down and reason with a terrorist.

With the terrorists shown on that tape? I agree. With the 'terrorists' who are fighting to defend their homes? If we leave them alone they will leave us alone.

>Do you want to? If the president said, "Bill, here is a treaty to ensure
>peace with Iraq, will you go and talk with Al-Qaeda and get it
> signed?"

Nope! If years ago someone said to you "here's an offer for David Berkowitz to turn himself in, why don't you take it over to him and talk to him about it" would you do it? And if you don't want to take an offer to a US serial killer, does that mean that all US citizens are serial killers?

>Hell no they will think of some sick way to kill you and film it and
> post it on the internet, so every US citizen can be scared and think
> that we should run off and let them keep up their torturing and
> terrorist acts because it is inhuman to invade a country that is killing
> millions of their own citizens just because they can.

Remember when we claimed that it was Saddam Hussein killing millions? Now it's the Iraqi people. If we kill them all and there is still violence in the Middle East, who will you blame next?

[freeflygoddess 0]

Ok, then what (see my edit above)? I just really think we are doing the best that we can do and whhat we are doing is right and should be done and sought through to the end. Otherwise all of these soldiers who are over there fighting and dieing are all in vain. Just like the Vietnam war, after it was all over and the soldiers came home, what did they come home to? A bunch of tree huggers who thought that that war was stupid and completly bashed those that fought in it. Now forget the fact that 'Nam was a drafted war and they had no choice, but think about how that made them feel to see their friends die and not be honored. Yeah maybe that is changeing but right then it happend and it drove a lot of them to deprression and many other phsycological dissorders. Do you really think that is what the US soldiers deserve to hear when they get back and saw their freinds die and were almost killed everyday, that this was was stupid and should have never happend and they are horriable pigs for going to war and be bashed and put down because they felt that they should and could make a difference by being there. Every single soilder there wants to be there, they chose to join the military. They may have not known when they joind for college money that they would actually have to fight, but they really should have thought about it then.


Oh and no where in the bible does it say to kill any one, infact it says the complete opposite, something along the lines of "let not ye judge lest ye be judged yourself? and also in reference to Jesus telling the people that were going to stone a hooker, "You with out sin cast the first stone" Now no where would it ever say to kill a gay because it is a sin. Infact I have never heard of anyone teaching their children to kill gays. Maybe people teaching them it is wrong, but even the bible isn't really all that clear if being gay is a sin or not. being with you sister and brother it does talk about as a sin, but not gays, but then again I haven't read the bible from cover to cover.

[Michele 1]

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Remember when we claimed that it was Saddam Hussein killing millions?

Didn't he? Or were those photos of all the dead Kurds faked right along with the terrorist's video?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,464]

>Didn't he?

Yes; Saddam did. Oddly, freeflygoddess is now claiming that a separate group (the group responsible for the beheading) had something to do with that.

[freeflygoddess 0]

No I claimed that Al-Qeada or the CIA beheaded Nick, not Sadam, what are you talking about? I have never said that Al-Qeda was responsiable for Sadam's killings, but they are responsiable for 9/11 and for many other terroist acts, including the use of chemicals of mass destruction. Which happend today btw.

[Michele 1]

Bill, I can't find where FFG says that. Can you cut/paste? I read through, but must've missed it.

(I know she just posted, too, but I wanted to see what you saw that led you to believe she said that...)

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[skydyvr 0]

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I think we should announce that those that truelly want freedom and peace have one week to go to the US soliders tents to be sent to the US to be protected, and then after a week, and the ones that truelly want to be free are out, then level the place and kill all the terrorist . . .

My God, I think I'm in love!

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 2,464]

>I just really think we are doing the best that we can do and whhat we
> are doing is right and should be done and sought through to the end.

Terrorists think the same way. They never stop to ask themselves if what they are doing is right; they just decide on a cause (i.e. "kill the infidels") and see it through to the end.

>Otherwise all of these soldiers who are over there fighting and dieing
>are all in vain.

It would surely be a cruel joke to find out that all those americans did not die to protect the US, and that we are actually less safe before the Iraq war than before it.

>Just like the Vietnam war, after it was all over and the soldiers came
> home, what did they come home to? A bunch of tree huggers who
> thought that that war was stupid and completly bashed those that
> fought in it.

I hope that doesn't happen here. Even if they are serving in a war that does not accomplish its objectives, it does not make their sacrifices any less noble.

>Do you really think that is what the US soldiers deserve to hear when
> they get back and saw their freinds die and were almost killed
> everyday, that this was was stupid and should have never happend
> and they are horriable pigs for going to war and be bashed and put
> down because they felt that they should and could make a
> difference by being there.

Some US solders are pretty horrible; they have raped, tortured and killed innocent Iraqis. The vast majority, though, are doing their best to serve their country, and they should be honored as such.

>Oh and no where in the bible does it say to kill any one . . .

Are you kidding???

Leviticus 20
Punishments for Sin

1 The LORD said to Moses,

2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.

3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.

4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death,

5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech.

. . .

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

. . .

22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.

. . .

27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

>infact it says the complete opposite, something along the lines
> of "let not ye judge lest ye be judged yourself?

Well, just there God himself gives eleven reasons to kill people. Ever cursed about your parents? Look out! A true believer has no choice but to bring God's will down upon you.

Now, since I gave you those quotes, could you give me the passage from the Koran that states "they will get 50 virgins in heaven if they kill themselves while bombing others that oppose them." ?

> Maybe people teaching them it is wrong, but even the bible isn't
> really all that clear if being gay is a sin or not.

I think "both of them have done what is detestable; they must be put to death" is pretty clear.

[likearock 1]

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Another thing about this beheading, it is coming out that he was friends with one of the terriorist that crashed the plane into the WTC. Also, his sister is married to an Al-queda opp and he was trying to get in with them

This charge is completely irresponsible. There have been no reasonable news accounts that even remotely support any of this. Everything points to the fact that Berg was just some idealistic guy who supported the war and wanted to use his technical abilities to help with the reconstruction. The one thing he was guilty of was to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Wayne

[livendive 8]

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Imagine a group of foreign liberals were to invade the US to rid us of the "evil of GWB." I'd fight them, and I'd probably vote for Skippy the Wonderdog before GWB.

Agreed. He's an absolute idiot, but he's OUR idiot dammit! :-)

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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However, there's a bit of a difference between dropping a bomb on a factory and accidentally killing a child and sawing someone's head off while they are alive.

I'm curious how you'd define that difference. The difference, to me, is simply a matter of denial. Bombs that kill women and children are more socially acceptable because we don't actually watch them die and can always claim some variant of "We didn't know they were there", "We didn't mean to kill them", or more recently "The bad guys were using them as shields." In the beheading example they have no such recourse of denial, and I think that just might be what we find abhorrent about it.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,464]

>The difference, to me, is simply a matter of denial.

It is a difference of intent. Let's say you have a few beers and drive home; you get into an accident and kill a young woman. Compare that to a man who kidnaps and strangles the same woman because he gets his kicks that way. The end result is the same - a woman is dead. However, in the first case, it was a result of carelessness, not malice. In the second case, it was a result of a deliberate and calculated attempt to kill that woman. We treat the two very differently under the law. It may not matter to the woman's children and husband, but it does matter in the eyes of the law.

[livendive 8]

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>The difference, to me, is simply a matter of denial.

It is a difference of intent. Let's say you have a few beers and drive home; you get into an accident and kill a young woman. Compare that to a man who kidnaps and strangles the same woman because he gets his kicks that way. The end result is the same - a woman is dead. However, in the first case, it was a result of carelessness, not malice. In the second case, it was a result of a deliberate and calculated attempt to kill that woman.

When driving home after a couple beers, your intent is to get home. When dropping bombs, your intent is to cause death and destruction. The 'physical' differences between killing them with a knife and killing them with a bomb are efficiency and distance, i.e. the bomb kills more people with less effort and you don't have to see the result from an arm's length away. I'm sure you can well imagine though, that some of those bombing victims suffer similarly long, or even longer, and excruciatingly painful deaths.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[turtlespeed 212]

No - wrong again -
The idea behind dropping bombs, in this case, is to decrease the number of hostile personnel trying to kill our troops and those that are there to provide Iraq with a free society.

Taking a knife to a guy's head, that was there to help rebuild antennas for the betterment of the society there, is completely different.

I am disturbed that you cannot make the distinction between the two.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[pajarito 0]

Yeah....me too....Geez!!

[billvon 2,464]

>When dropping bombs, your intent is to cause death and
>destruction.

Destruction - yes. Death - no. Generally the intent of bombing a factory is to destroy the factory. If you kill someone in the process, it's an event you could have forseen, but it was not your intent. Similarly, if you get in the car drunk, your intent was not to kill anyone. If you kill someone in the process, it's an event you could have reasonably forseen, but it was not your intent to kill.

If you don't want to kill people, don't start wars and don't drive drunk. If you do either one of those things, accept BEFOREHAND that you will likely kill someone. It doesn't make the deaths intentional, but it does mean you took a risk with their lives.

>I'm sure you can well imagine though, that some of those bombing
> victims suffer similarly long, or even longer, and excruciatingly
> painful deaths.

Of course, which is why you have to decide beforehand if you want to risk doing just that. However, there is still a vast difference between choosing bombing targets to destroy factories and slitting someone's throat. If you intentionally firebomb civilian population centers, your point might be more valid.

[kallend 1,672]

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>When dropping bombs, your intent is to cause death and
>destruction.

Destruction - yes. Death - no. Generally the intent of bombing a factory is to destroy the factory. If you kill someone in the process, it's an event you could have forseen, but it was not your intent. Similarly, if you get in the car drunk, your intent was not to kill anyone. If you kill someone in the process, it's an event you could have reasonably forseen, but it was not your intent to kill.

If you don't want to kill people, don't start wars and don't drive drunk. If you do either one of those things, accept BEFOREHAND that you will likely kill someone. It doesn't make the deaths intentional, but it does mean you took a risk with their lives.

>I'm sure you can well imagine though, that some of those bombing
> victims suffer similarly long, or even longer, and excruciatingly
> painful deaths.

Of course, which is why you have to decide beforehand if you want to risk doing just that. However, there is still a vast difference between choosing bombing targets to destroy factories and slitting someone's throat. If you intentionally firebomb civilian population centers, your point might be more valid.

All of my students intended to get "A"s in physics. The outcome didn't work out that way for most of them. If intent is more important than outcome, maybe I should change all their grades to "A"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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No - wrong again -
The idea behind dropping bombs, in this case, is to decrease the number of hostile personnel trying to kill our troops and those that are there to provide Iraq with a free society.

Taking a knife to a guy's head, that was there to help rebuild antennas for the betterment of the society there, is completely different.

I am disturbed that you cannot make the distinction between the two.

"Reduce the number of hostile personnel"...you mean "kill" so just go ahead and say it. You're trying to imply some sort of moral justification for one and not the other. "Rebuild antennas for the betterment of society." Really? Do you see the alternate possibility that he just wanted to make some money? Can you see how they might perceive that he was trying to profit from the invasion of that country?

Face it. They want to "reduce the number of (American) personnel" and with Nicholas Berg they reduced the number by one and provided a very public discouragement to others. We don't want people there killing our troops, and with each bomb we drop we reduce the number by X people and provide a public discouragement to others.

Killing is killing, whether done by aggressors or by defenders. We just have technologies that help us do it more efficiently and still get a good night's sleep afterwards.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[turtlespeed 212]

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All of my students intended to get "A"s in physics. The outcome didn't work out that way for most of them. If intent is more important than outcome, maybe I should change all their grades to "A"?

Do you consider your students "Insurgents"?

or conversley - do they consider you as thier enemy - are they trying to sabotage your efforts of giving them a failing grade?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,464]

>All of my students intended to get "A"s in physics. The outcome
> didn't work out that way for most of them. If intent is more
> important than outcome, maybe I should change all their grades
> to "A"?

Intent is not more important than outcome; it's just a factor in determining punishment. If you kill someone by driving drunk you still go to jail. It is still different than kidnapping and strangling someone.

If someone gets an A in your class by cheating, vs another student who gets an A by working his ass off, do you treat them the same? Their work might well be identical, and if grades are all that matter, they are both equally successful.

[turtlespeed 212]

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Face it. They want to "reduce the number of (American) personnel" and with Nicholas Berg they reduced the number by one and provided a very public discouragement to others.

Nope-

The beheading was a dramatization. Sensationalism. But is is also murder. There is a diference betwqeen murder and killing combatants in a war. If you cannot differentiate the two. . .

See, if someone is trying to kill you - stop them - kill them if it will save you.

What threat did NIck pose to these individual terrorists?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun