40 Dead....and Counting.

[christelsabine 1]

yes, i know what you mean.

dangerous is, if countries like India, Pakistan own nuclear weapons, Korea too.

we, i mean the "western" world, can do two things:
deny it, or live with it.

i would at first just recommend our secret services to do a good job...

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Tonto 1]

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South Africa abandonded its nuclear program before they even developed a weapon.

Wrong.

http://cns.miis.edu/research/safrica/chron.htm

We had 7, and they were very publicly dismantled under UN supervision in the early 1990's while the "government of national unity" under dual Nobel peace prize winners/presidents Nelson Mandela and FW De Klerk ran SA prior to the 1st democratic elections 10 years ago.

They were developed in the late 1970's and early 80's as the world began to turn against SA after the Soweto riots in 1976 and the UN arms embargo came into effect.

t

Edit; Added link.

It's the year of the Pig.

[Gawain 0]

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South Africa abandonded its nuclear program before they even developed a weapon.

Wrong.

I stand corrected, as I had misread the summary from FAS.org http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/rsa/nuke/index.html

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[bodypilot90 0]

he said......

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Congratulations to President Bush. His war in Iraq killed 40 Americans this week. Aren't we tired of our boys being killed in some third-world s**t hole? I know I am. When will it end....when 55,000 Americans are killed....like in Vietnam? Ahhhh....the power of the vote.

I said.......

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would you have also stood by when Hiltler was killing thousands?

then you said

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If you can't make your point without comparing someone to Hitler, it's extremely likely you don't have a point.

When did i compare anyone to hitler. I asked if he would have stood by and did nothing Hitler was killing people.

please explain........

[bodypilot90 0]

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Hitler was a pathological murderer who killed six million innocent Jews. To equate him to GWB is........... pathetic.

sad but true. Freedom costs, freedom hurts. If we HAD acted on what little information we had about a attack before sept.11th the dems would have been screaming about that like they are now about Iraq. They forget that Clinton let Bin Laden slip away not 1 but 3 times.

[Skyrad 0]

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The difference thought is that HITLER was a LIBERAL!!!!!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Yea, India having the bomb.....WTF, I mean come on....Don't let countries that belive in reincarnation have nukes!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Ian84 0]

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Don't let countries that belive in reincarnation have nukes!

I think I'd like to come back as a 3 eyed fish

[headoverheels 291]

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The sig line is sad but true...

Then let's teach more children to talk dirty.

[Beerlight 0]

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Congratulations to President Bush. His war in Iraq killed 40 Americans this week. Aren't we tired of our boys being killed in some third-world s**t hole? I know I am. When will it end....when 55,000 Americans are killed....like in Vietnam? Ahhhh....the power of the vote.

Thoughts and prayers to the families of those killed.

- Bush or the US didn't start it. OBL and his gang of terrorist "started" it. Anybody wish to argue that point, bring it on.

Going into Iraq? Hell I didn't "agree" with it either. But, SH is the one that should be compared to Hitler, and I truly believe the coalition is just in removing him from power. Stopping SH now, no doubt, saved hundreds of thousands from death. "Saved lives"

I still wonder why Middle Eastern countries didn't try and stop him. Why do they just lay back and take shit like that? In 1990, Kuwait basically laid down, Saudi couldn't defend themselves, why? Def wasn't a lack of money.....

What's the US guilty of? ans. > Helping other countries defend themselves from tyranny. I guess we are guilty as charged.

I'm not for war, and although I served in the US military for 23 years, I'm definitely a lover of peace. But, our peaceful lives (that's everyone, not just US) as we knew them, will never be the same as long as OSB and people like SH are in power. Gotta go, gotta go.

Let's look at the big picture here.......

Finally, Prayers for all the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. May you be victorious, may you return home to your familes, may you lead peaceful lives....

Buck

[Skyrad 0]

SEVENTY FOUR American soldiers killed in Iraq in the past TWELVE DAYS! We're hearing in the media all about how the fragile cease fire is holding in Falluja but what about else where in Iraq? The amount of positive spin being put on the cease fire is covering up the reality of the casulties in Iraq. These figures are just the dead not in injured. So whats been happening in Iraq just in the last two days alone?

04/12/04 Reuters: One U.S. Soldier Killed North of Baghdad
One U.S. soldier was killed and four were wounded when their patrol was attacked near Samarra, north of the capital, Baghdad, the U.S. military said in a statement Monday

04/12/04 cjtf7: Task Force First Armored Division Soldier Dies
A Task Force 1st Armored Division Soldier died April 11 as a result of wounds sustained during an improvised device attack in Baghdad around 11:45 p.m. the previous day.

04/12/04 cjtf7: Task Force First Armored Division Soldier Killed
A Task force First Armored Division soldier died when a U.S. Army convoy came under attack in downtown Baghdad around 11:30 p.m. April 10th

04/12/04 cjtf7: 1st Infantry Division Soldier Killed
One First Infantry Division Soldier was killed and one was wounded when 15 anti-Coalition insurgents attacked a reconnaissance patrol near Khalis at about 3 a.m. April 10

04/12/04 cjtf7: One Task Force Danger Soldier - 4/9
One Task Force Danger Soldier and an Iraqi Civil Defense Corps soldier were killed in separate attacks April

04/12/04 WSFA: Mississippi Man Taken Hostage in Iraq
It's a tense wait for relatives of the Mississippi truck driver who's been taken hostage in Iraq. The deadline set by his captors has passed and there's no word on the fate of Thomas Hamill.

04/12/04 AP: Three U.S. Marines killed in fighting in Iraq
Three U.S. Marines were killed in fighting in western Iraq, the military said Monday in a statement.

04/11/04 BBC: Iraqi troops reject Falluja duty
A senior US military officer in Iraq has said that a battalion of the new Iraqi army refused to support US forces in the town of Falluja

04/11/04 AFP: China confirms seven citizens kidnapped in Iraq
The Chinese government has confirmed seven of its citizens have been kidnapped in Iraq and called for their immediate release.

04/11/04 AP: Explosions occur in compound of U.S.-led coalition headquarters
Three loud explosions occurred Monday in a large compound in central Baghdad that houses the headquarters of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq.

04/11/04 AFP: 2 US soldiers confirmed missing
Military spokesman Justin McCue said: "There are two soldiers missing as a result of an attack on the convoy today ... the attack occured right around Baghdad International Airport."

04/11/04 AP: UK Man Missing In Iraq Alive, With Coalition
A British man reported missing in Iraq is safe and well and in the hands of coalition forces, Britain's Foreign Office said Sunday.

04/11/04 Reuters: Al Jazeera airs tape of 'two dead US officers' in Iraq
More than 600 Iraqis have been killed in fighting in Falluja since U.S. forces launched an offensive against Sunni guerrillas in the town a week ago, the head of the main hospital said on Sunday.

04/11/04 Centcom: Attacks killed eight U.S. service members April 9 and 10.
Three 1st Armored Division soldiers were killed in a coordinated attack at about 8:30 a.m., April 9....

04/11/04 Reuters: U.S. Soldier Dies After Iraqi Firefight
One U.S. soldier died of wounds received in a furious firefight last week with Iraqi insurgents in the town of Baquba, north of Bahgdad, the U.S. military said on Sunday

04/11/04 DOD: Casualties Identified
Sgt. Lee D. Todacheene, 29; Petty Officer 3rd Class Fernando A. Mendezaceves, 27; Sgt. 1st Class William W. Labadie Jr., 45

04/11/04 DOD: Casualties Identified
Pfc. Christopher D. Mabry, 19; Spc. Jonathan R. Kephart, 2; Spc. Isaac Michael Nieves, 20

04/11/04 DOD: Casualties Identified
Sgt. Felix M. Delgreco, 22; Lance Cpl. Levi T Angell, 20; 1st Lt. Joshua M. Palmer, 25; Lance Cpl. Michael B. Wafford, 20; Staff Sgt. William M. Harrell, 30

04/11/04 DOD: Casualties Identified
Cpl. Michael R. Speer, 24; Lance Cpl. Elias Torrez III, 21; Cpl. Matthew E. Matula, 20

04/11/04 DPA: Two German security agents reported killed in Iraq
The German Foreign Office today declined to comment on a published report that two missing German security agents had been killed by insurgents in Iraq

04/11/04 Reuters: U.S. Apache Shot Down in Iraq, Two Crew Killed
The two crew members of a U.S. Apache helicopter were killed when it was shot down in Iraq on Sunday, the U.S. army said.

04/11/04 AP: Post Iraq Sickness
Six soldiers who have fallen ill since their return from Iraq said Friday that the Army ignored their complaints about uranium poisoning from U.S. weapons fired during combat

04/11/04 AFP: 4 Iraqis Killed
Four Iraqis were killed in clashes with US forces overnight in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk, a police officer said Sunday.

04/11/04 AFP: Marines wounded in Fallujah clash
Two US marines were wounded by sniper fire and an armed Iraqi was killed in a subsequent street clash on Sunday despite the start of a ceasefire in the city of Fallujah, Marine sources said.

04/11/04 Saba: Missing Germans killed in Iraq: report
Two German security officers missing in Iraq were killed by Iraqi insurgents, London's Sunday Telegraph reported.

04/11/04 AP: U.S. Helicopter Shot Down in Baghdad
Gunmen shot down a U.S. attack helicopter during fighting in western Baghdad on Sunday, and the fate of its two-member crew was unknown.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Beerlight 0]

But, there is a reason that the coalition is having all these losses, right? If today, the coalition packed up, left Iraq, then what? What will happen to that country? I believe it will RETURN to the same terrroristic type cesspool it was before the coalition went in. Terrorist running rampant, planning new attacks all OVER the world. They aren't just gonna take a nap you know.

We must stay the course. I grieve for the losses too. I have friends there and I'd be there if I wasn't retired from active duty......

Again, let's look at the big picture.

Buck

[TheAnvil 0]

Good post dude. If we DON'T stay the course now, we'd be showing weakness to these jackasses and just encourage them.

Leftists don't want to hear that - they just want to attack Bush. Buffoons.

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,436]

>If we DON'T stay the course now, we'd be showing weakness to these
>jackasses and just encourage them.

I agree. We started it, we have an obligation to finish it. We may lose thousands of US troops, but the time to decide that's OK or not OK is before we commit to a course of action, not a year later.

[talon1206 0]

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hmmm...

as your sig line is alway "on topic", my simple question: America was quite fine unter Clinton, the democrat, in fact: US was better at these times.

did Clinton - or Mrs. Clinton - grew up talking dirty ?

weird

FINE the US was FINE??

How about the USS Cole, were those boys fine when nothing happened after their deaths? What about the US embassy bombings? Were those families fine when nothing was done about their loved ones deaths? Our economy was better than it is now but the US wasn't FINE under the Clinton Administration.

"Pilots without Maintainers are just pedestrians with cool jackets and sunglasses"

[Gawain 0]

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Quote

hmmm...

as your sig line is alway "on topic", my simple question: America was quite fine unter Clinton, the democrat, in fact: US was better at these times.

did Clinton - or Mrs. Clinton - grew up talking dirty ?

weird

FINE the US was FINE??

How about the USS Cole, were those boys fine when nothing happened after their deaths? What about the US embassy bombings? Were those families fine when nothing was done about their loved ones deaths? Our economy was better than it is now but the US wasn't FINE under the Clinton Administration.

Don't forget the first WTC bombing too. The US was not "fine" under Clinton.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[christelsabine 1]

regarding FINE, you are right: i was not detailled enough.

with re to economy, there is no doubt, unter Clinton, economy was much more efficient.

who torpedoed the USS Cole in the harbour in Iraq? there was never a final proof. sadly 17 were death.

bombardement on the US embassies: never any final proof of Iraqi sources. these attackes were coming from other parties.

so search the basic evil in the country of Iraq, simply is wrong. SH surely was the devil of his country. but this is not our or the US problem! OBL was not supported by SH, but much more by the Arabian world. what to do on the other Arabian countries? invade again?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Gawain 0]

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with re to economy, there is no doubt, unter Clinton, economy was much more efficient.

The wonderful "economy" everyone likes to cite was a "bubble". It was artificial growth that popped in 2000 and has taken four years recover from.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[christelsabine 1]

this "Clinton part" is just something of secondary importance under this tread.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Jimbo 0]

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with re to economy, there is no doubt, unter Clinton, economy was much more efficient.

No it wasn't. Under Clinton we were all riding the wave created by the dot.com bubble. That bubble burst and now we're living in its aftermath. The economy is currently recovering, however. It's just going to take some time.

As far as your terror link goes, you're right, as far as I know, there's no direct link between SH and OBL. However, there is a direct link between SH and terrorism in other parts of the world, and directly against our allies. Remember, we declared a war on terror, not simply a war on OBL.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 2,436]

>Remember, we declared a war on terror, not simply a war on OBL.

Yet we support Uzbekistan with its torture chambers. The "war on terror" was just another excuse to execute a long-held desire of conservatives to drive Saddam Hussein from power. Read the now-famous PNAC plan; it's clear that this has been in the planning stages for a long time. Today, US citizens die in terror attacks every day in Iraq, and it's clear that our Iraq war distracted us from pursuing Al Qaeda leadership (including Bin Laden.)

[Jimbo 0]

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Yet we support Uzbekistan with its torture chambers.

It's the War on Terror, Bill, not torture.

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The "war on terror" was just another excuse to execute a long-held desire of conservatives to drive Saddam Hussein from power. Read the now-famous PNAC plan; it's clear that this has been in the planning stages for a long time.

Yes, it's been in the planning stages for quite some time. Since before, and during the Clinton administration, IIRC.

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Today, US citizens die in terror attacks every day in Iraq, and it's clear that our Iraq war distracted us from pursuing Al Qaeda leadership (including Bin Laden.)

Yes, US Servicemen, our allies, and the Iraqi people die every day in Iraq, and that's a shame. Really. Hopefully we'll do something decicive to fix that situation soon. As far as your claim that this has distracted, or taken away from, the search for Al Qaeda, I don't see any proof of that. What? It's not on the front page anymore? Blame the media. We've still got a sizable force in Afghanistan. We'll find them.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 2,436]

>It's the War on Terror, Bill, not torture.

Ah! Sorry. After all the "but what about Saddam's torture chambers?" cries I accidentally made the connection. OK, so we support torture.

>Yes, it's been in the planning stages for quite some time. Since
>before, and during the Clinton administration, IIRC.

Definitely.

> As far as your claim that this has distracted, or taken away from, the
> search for Al Qaeda, I don't see any proof of that.

--------------
From The Guardian:

The fact that the Pentagon pulled the fighting force most equipped for hunting down Osama bin Laden from Afghanistan in March 2002 in order to pre- position it for Iraq cannot be denied.

Fifth Group Special Forces were a rare breed in the US military: they spoke Arabic, Pastun and Dari. They had been in Afghanistan for half a year, had developed a network of local sources and alliances, and believed that they were closing in on bin Laden.

Without warning, they were then given the task of tracking down Saddam. "We were going nuts on the ground about that decision," one of them recalls.

"In spite of the fact that it had taken five months to establish trust, suddenly there were two days to hand over to people who spoke no Dari, Pastun or Arabic, and had no rapport."
---------------

From the American Prospect:

Notably, the Fifth Group Special Forces, an elite unit trained in the local languages of Afghanistan and the Pakistani border region, was pulled off the al-Qaeda hunt and redeployed to Iraq. With the group’s members went America's only two RC135 U spy planes. Scarce resources like Arabic translators with sufficient security clearances were seized by the Iraq campaign, as were the many FBI agents assigned to interview thousands of Iraqi Americans.

----------------------------------------

From Knight Ridder Newspapers:

WASHINGTON - A growing number of counter-terrorism experts are challenging President Bush's assertion that Iraq is a major battle in the war against terrorism and are questioning whether the U.S. invasion of Iraq has hurt rather than helped the global battle against al-Qaida and its affiliates.

Experts who have served in top positions in both Republican and Democratic administrations are increasingly suggesting that the Iraq war has diverted momentum, troops and intelligence resources from the worldwide campaign to destroy the remnants of al-Qaida.

They note that the presence of U.S. troops in an Arab homeland is serving as a major recruiting tool for signing up and motivating new jihadis, or Islamic holy warriors.

. . .

Bush administration officials note that much of al-Qaida's known top leadership has been caught or killed, but even Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, in a much-publicized memo that was leaked last month, said ways of measuring progress are almost nonexistent.


"Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror," Rumsfeld wrote.

----------------------------------

>What? It's not on the front page anymore?

Gotta read more than the first page.

[Jimbo 0]

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Ah! Sorry. After all the "but what about Saddam's torture chambers?" cries I accidentally made the connection. OK, so we support torture.

Not going to war with a country over torture isn't the same as supporting it, Bill. You know that. Nice try.

WRT pulling out the Fifth Group Special Forces, I was unaware of that, and also unaware of their credentials. Thanks for the information.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[christelsabine 1]

ok, understood a war agaist terror. but why taking place in Iraq? terror is happening worldwide. sad enough.

support for terrorists is not coming from Iraq, as everybody knows.

so what? it's like fighting against wind mills. GWB just wants to convince the whole world that he is doing a Holy War against terror! by destroying a small poor country somewhere between Middle and Far East. by sending your guys into their death.

who TF will be blind enough to believe this is fighting agains terror?


oh yeah forgot: the US votes

dudeist skydiver # 3105