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vonSanta 0
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I’m sorry you don’t like my “canned” responses. I’ll be the first to admit that there are more learned people than I and who know much more in reference to this topic. I’m just putting forth some examples from others. Just because it came from a book and was written by someone else doesn’t make it invalid. I cited my post and made it quite clear that I didn’t author it.
Ah, it was more of a tongue in cheek comment than anythign else. Should have added one of these: .
Books are good. The title of your choice suggested a rather one sided source though, which in my mind warranted a cheeky response .
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I personally believe that the proof for the existence of God is all around us and THAT, at least, has been made known to everyone (whether they chose to acknowledge it or not) but there is also the Bible. I know that you would have to first believe that it is accurate and all that before you would accept it as proof. However, if you did, you’d know that Jesus claimed the existence of God, claimed that the Bible is the written word of God, and validated his statements by his sinless life, teachings, prophesies, miracles, death and resurrection. Therefore, there is, AT LEAST, a basis for the belief in a God.
The basis being personal faith. Wish I had yours, but I don't. I'm an odd combination of curiosity and skepticism, coming from a secular science oriented family (father, sis docs, brothers 1 mathematician, 1 computer scientist), so my faith abilities aren't that great and I tend to see everything in likelihoods, grounded in current scientific theories (which may very well be wrong).
Where you see the presence of God, I see mother nature. It's truly mindboggling and fascinating, but there's no need for a god for complexity or "order" to arise. Pepples on a beach are ordered, with the lightest ones being on top, and they're ordered by simple wave action. How this apply to the "first cause" or the "uncaused cause" I don't know. Hope *you* are right though, but none of us know what's true.
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God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites; ‘I am’ has sent me to you. Exodus 3:14
Hm yes, but this is circular in nature, this argument. God says the Bible is His words. The Bible says God exists.Therefore he does, because the Bible is His words. QED.
QuoteGod “just is.” You don’t have to understand it. You just need to know it.
I need to know it on a non faith basis. There are manygods to choose between, and I ain't making my choice based on cultural bias (i.e what religion I was born into). Sometimes it sucks to be me. Heh.
QuoteI would say the universe couldn’t have the same properties of God (Just be in existence) because of intelligent design. I just can’t accept the fact that something without a thought process of some kind could have made the things in the universe develop like they have. The complexities are just too great for me to rationally think that it “just happened.”
Math and nuclear physics is beyond my grasp of understanding. It works though.
How does adding a God decrease the complexity of the situation? One adds an infinite being that's impossible to exlain or understand, and then one claims this entity is uncaused. The complexity of this alone is greater than the complexity of a self caused eternal universe. Or just a universe for that matter. Add a god -> things get more complicated, not less
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I like your choice of words when you add “less complexity.” I think God as a theory wins over the universe “just is” theory exactly because of its complexity and the chances that it would “just happen” the way it did.
Again, I'm sorry but I have to disagree (at least on a logical level, not so much on an emotional one). See above. .
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I completely disagree. If you say “we do not know” you “believe” that you don’t know. Sort of like, if you chose not to decide, you’ve still made a choice (in your belief). Believing that something is not so is also very much a belief. You’re taking a stand either way.
My comment is not grounded in faith based belief. It's evidence based, or at least rationally based. The facts: we do not know what caused the universe. Some assert it was a god - and use faith as "proof". The 'believe' this is how it is. Others believe it is Mother Nature, and we just don't understand the mechanisms yet. This is also a statement of faith.
I settle for "we don't know", which is what the evidence suggests. We have a pretty good picture of how life evolved on earth (a whole other debate), and there's lots of evidence there. What do we have for the cause of the universe? Some theories supported by math and scant empirical evidence, and the God did it one. The facts we *do* have is that the universe exists (and let's not go into solipsism, I *really* hate solipsism). Has it always existed? Did it come into existence? If the latter, how?
Facts are it exists, and we don't have much of a clue as to why or how it happened. You have faith that it was a divine entity, and I envy you in that regard. I can only go as far as current understanding leads me and an unable to make that last leap of faith.
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I'd say that to believe that this all just happened by chance is a HUGE leap of faith.
It's a possibility, just as the god one is. I just dunno which is correct. Possibilities, choices. Theories, facts, faith, all intermixed. The philosophical aspects of life are so daunting and overwhelming that it ain't odd I skydive
Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst
Zenister 0
Quoteand here, you get into philosophy.
is the organization of particles in the manner described a random occurrence, did it just happen that way because that's the way it happens,
or
was the organization of particles masterminded by a being with order on its agenda?
and next assuming that it was ordered by a higher consciousness why does that immediately imply (to many) that consciousness calls itself Yahweh? There are an infinite number of other choices as well. Including those who have no interest in humanity or its worship whatsoever.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
I’m sorry you don’t like my “canned” responses. I’ll be the first to admit that there are more learned people than I and who know much more in reference to this topic. I’m just putting forth some examples from others. Just because it came from a book and was written by someone else doesn’t make it invalid. I cited my post and made it quite clear that I didn’t author it.
I personally believe that the proof for the existence of God is all around us and THAT, at least, has been made known to everyone (whether they chose to acknowledge it or not) but there is also the Bible. I know that you would have to first believe that it is accurate and all that before you would accept it as proof. However, if you did, you’d know that Jesus claimed the existence of God, claimed that the Bible is the written word of God, and validated his statements by his sinless life, teachings, prophesies, miracles, death and resurrection. Therefore, there is, AT LEAST, a basis for the belief in a God.
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites; ‘I am’ has sent me to you. Exodus 3:14
God “just is.” You don’t have to understand it. You just need to know it.
I would say the universe couldn’t have the same properties of God (Just be in existence) because of intelligent design. I just can’t accept the fact that something without a thought process of some kind could have made the things in the universe develop like they have. The complexities are just too great for me to rationally think that it “just happened.”
I like your choice of words when you add “less complexity.” I think God as a theory wins over the universe “just is” theory exactly because of its complexity and the chances that it would “just happen” the way it did.
I completely disagree. If you say “we do not know” you “believe” that you don’t know. Sort of like, if you chose not to decide, you’ve still made a choice (in your belief). Believing that something is not so is also very much a belief. You’re taking a stand either way.
I'd say that to believe that this all just happened by chance is a HUGE leap of faith.
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