Pull-out vs throw out (BOC)

[YvonneWiggers 0]

So, I'm ordering a new rig and am wondering what deployment system would be best for me. Some facts about me:

- 900 jumps, most of which freefly
- No intention to start wingsuiting (at least not with this rig)
- Most jumps on BOC rigs, none on pull-out
- Pretty weak in the arms (already went to reserve for a hard-pull once)
- Almost always pack my own rig and know how to pack a pull-out rig

If you were in my position, which one would you choose? And, more important, why?

"So I jump out, look up, and think 'Oh SHIT!...

It's PINK!!!'"
- army guy after his first staticline jump

[DocPop 1]

I converted from TO to PO and would not go back.

The downsides of a PO for me are:

- you might find a packer that can't do it
- deployments are slightly slower
- possible floating pud (but I can reach the lanyard and deploy with my rig)

The upsides are:

- no exposed BOC to wear out
- the PC can't "creep" out in the plane
- I believe it is less likely to result in a premature deployment
- it eliminates many kinds of horseshoe
- it eliminates the pin-through-the bridle mal
- the rig looks a lot neater
- no possibility of the PC getting bunched up in the BOC
- PC packing takes next to no time vs. a BOC
- and probably more....

ETA:

1. deployments are quite different; practice on the ground with someone who jumps a PO.
2. Have a look at the Infinity with PO. The design is the best on the market IMO. Rounded corners on closing flaps and the tuck tab on the bridle are brilliantly simple but effective measures against hard pulls and floating puds respectively.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[skydiverek 61]

Also, pull out eliminates 99% of PC-in-tow cases.

[nigel99 325]

When I was researching with a view to swapping to pull out, the biggest downside appeared to be more strength required and increased shoulder injury.

Only information was from DZ.com and haven't jumped them but packed a few.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[peter.draper 0]

A little off topic but I loaned a pull out rig to a guy one time, trained him on how to deploy and at pull time he threw the pud and rode it down until the aad fired. Moral... if you do switch TRAIN A LOT before you jump it :)

[chuckakers 419]

Throwout. If you don't like the pull forces sometimes on your throwout, you'll hate them on a pullout.

One of the primary advantages of the pullout was to avoid premature deployments. Those risks were greatly diminished when the sport moved from leg strap mounted p/c's to BOC. Also, with more modern rigs that employ freefly friendly throwout handles, the advantage of pullouts is even less valuable.

Besides, if you get a pullout you'll have to wear a silly straight pin necklace.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

When I was researching with a view to swapping to pull out, the biggest downside appeared to be more strength required and increased shoulder injury.

With more than 5000 pull out jumps under my belt, I would suggest that anyone having the above problems should change their techniques.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skez 0]

Base jumpers use throwout......skydivers can use whatever they want they have a reserve rsl aad's skyhooks etc it doesn't really matter....if your life is on the line on that one parachute ...then throw out is how it is

FTMC

[gowlerk 2,114]

I've got lots of jumps on both. They both work fine. That said, the guy who invented both now says that one of them was a mistake. That would be the one that gives you an out of sequence deployment every time. Throw out has long been the standard for many reasons. But for me the ease of transitioning between rigs, and sometimes changing canopies makes keeping with the more commonly used throw out an automatic choice.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DocPop 1]

diablopilot

Quote

When I was researching with a view to swapping to pull out, the biggest downside appeared to be more strength required and increased shoulder injury.

With more than 5000 pull out jumps under my belt, I would suggest that anyone having the above problems should change their techniques.

I agree. This problem seems to stem from people using a throw-out type motion with a pull-out system (ie. straight arm pull out to the side all from the shoulder).

The technique I use is as follows:

1. Reach back and grasp the pud firmly
2. Extend the elbow, thus moving the hand down directly towards the feet (ie. NOT out to the side)
3. Feel the pin release.
4. Now that the container is open and the PC is free, move the PC out to the side into the air stream with a straight arm.
5. Release the handle promptly as the PC will inflate and rip the pud from your hand (vs. a TO where the PC will not inflate).

The above procedure means that all the force to free the pud and open the container comes from triceps contraction/elbow extension and probably places less force on the shoulder than a throw-out..

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Deyan 36]

gowlerk

That said, the guy who invented both now says that one of them was a mistake.

Bill Booth - throw out
John Sherman - pull out

Now you know why the inventor of the throw out doesn't like the pull out

Quote

That would be the one that gives you an out of sequence deployment every time.

How come the pull out gives you an out of sequence deployment?

This question is a trap. Don't answer it!

ETA: To the OP, ask your dad

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[DocPop 1]

gowlerk

That would be the one that gives you an out of sequence deployment every time.

That same out of sequence deployment that reserves use, right?

It's not out of sequence in the sense that with a PO that is the intended sequence.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[diablopilot 2]

skez

Base jumpers use throwout......skydivers can use whatever they want they have a reserve rsl aad's skyhooks etc it doesn't really matter....if your life is on the line on that one parachute ...then throw out is how it is

BASE jumpers use far more deployment styles than throwout, and there is no comparison.

If you want to make another silly analogy, your skydiving reserve is much closer to a pull out than a throw out.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[virgin-burner 1]

DocPop

*** That would be the one that gives you an out of sequence deployment every time.

That same out of sequence deployment that reserves use, right?

i wasnt aware that pull-out's also used a compressed spring.. i should probably check with my rigger!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[DocPop 1]

virgin-burner

****** That would be the one that gives you an out of sequence deployment every time.

That same out of sequence deployment that reserves use, right?

i wasnt aware that pull-out's also used a compressed spring.. i should probably check with my rigger!



You're right, it is slightly more reliable than the reserve system in that you physically place the PC in the airstream instead of hoping that a spring launches it out of your burble.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billbooth 10]

Quote

Deyan

*** That said, the guy who invented both now says that one of them was a mistake.

Bill Booth - throw out
John Sherman - pull out

Now you know why the inventor of the throw out doesn't like the pull out

Quote

That would be the one that gives you an out of sequence deployment every time.

How come the pull out gives you an out of sequence deployment?

This question is a trap. Don't answer it!

ETA: To the OP, ask your dad

My patent covers both throw out and pull out deployment systems. I tried both, and came to the conclusion that throw out was the better system. The market seems to agree with me, and the vast majority of people now use throw out.

Don't get me wrong, some people go through 1,000's of jumps on pull out systems with no problems, but it takes a special technique and understanding about exactly what you are doing to make a pullout system work correctly. Hand deploys are simply easier for most people.

[gowlerk 2,114]

This question is one of the best ways to get an argument started at the DZ. So many people believe that their way is the best, and that the other way is no good. But those who have been around awhile generally only engage in the conversation if they feel like having some fun with it. It's mostly pointless. Both systems work fine, but like the man says, the marketplace has spoken.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Bealio 0]

I borrowed a rig with a pullout and practiced a lot on the ground, but still managed to drop it before pulling the pin. I couldn't find the pud, then flipped on my back in hopes that the pud would be visible, but no luck. Pulled my reserve at 2K.

[skez 0]

no one uses pullouts anymore well hardly anyone i havent even seen one in real life
Pullouts, leg strap boc and spring main pcs are gone forever its time to let go ppl lol

FTMC

[jimjumper 25]

Actually, I have been seeing a few new leg strap BOC's lately on older jumpers with shoulder issues. The pull is much easier on the shoulder.

[skez 0]

Maybe they seen swayzey in point break use one so thought they would be equally as awesome lol

FTMC

[D22369 0]

you have 900 jumps using a throw out now, I guess the question would be why would you want to change to a system you haven't ever tried?

you might hate a pullout

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Deyan 36]

billbooth

My patent covers both throw out and pull out deployment systems.

I stand corrected...

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[mcordell 2]

skez

no one uses pullouts anymore well hardly anyone i havent even seen one in real life
Pullouts, leg strap boc and spring main pcs are gone forever its time to let go ppl lol

Go with a belly band. I hear retro is back in style. Just make sure you don't twist it when you put it on...

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[pchapman 278]

Deyan

***
My patent covers both throw out and pull out deployment systems.

I stand corrected...

Hang on -- he said his patent covers it. But did he invent it?

A patent can cover a whole range of possibilities without every possibility being worked out. Such as a pilot chute that is not spring loaded and is deployed by a direct connection from hand to pilot chute.

Parachutist mag said:

Quote

Bill Booth of United Parachute Technologies (then known as The Uninsured Relative Workshop) patented both at the same time in the early 1970s.

and

Quote

Nancy LaRiviere from Parachute Labs Inc. (aka Jump Shack) provided some insight into the development of the pull-out system on the company’s Racer container: “John Sherman devised the pull-out for the Racer container circa 1974. The logic behind the pull-out design is and was to maintain the proper sequence of deployment and [for the jumper to] not have to rely on the pilot chute to open the container.”

Ref:
parachutistonline.com/safety_training/ask_a_rigger/pull-out-pilot-chutes

As you'll see below, I don't fully believe Parachutist is this case.

Other sources also say "early 1970's" for the patent. What patent is it? It must be US patent # 4,039,164 by William Ross Booth, patented 1977, filed 1976. I don't see anything earlier by him, nor does he cite any earlier work related to himself or his company. It is also the patent shown in Poynters vol 1 about non spring loaded pilot chutes.

Ponyters notes that

Quote

With the introduction of Bill Booth's Wonderhog system in 1974 came the "throw-out pilot chutes" and "pull-out pilot chutes".

The wording isn't quite clear whether the Wonderhog actually had both at that time, or just started the trend which gave us both designs in the end.

The patent says stuff like:

Quote

c. said bridle cord going through a hole in said core when said flaps are enclosing said main chute, whereby said main chute is locked in place; wherein there are also container means attached to the front of the user of the parachute, said pilot chute being small and fitable into said container means whereby it is also deployable with one hand.

So it is saying there is a small pilot chute (which can't have a spring) in a pouch on the front of the jumper (eg belly band), and the bridle is inserted into the closing loop. That's it. Nothing about closing pin designs, spandex pouches, leg throw outs, BOC's, or pull-outs.

Indeed other language in the patent repeatedly states how it has the safety measure of the properly deployed pilot chute being what determines whether the pack is opened. The main chute can't fall out of the pack until tugged by a properly deployed pilot chute

So this effectively denies being related to the pull-out concept.

Near the end the patent there is a sort of conclusion where the patent attempts to be as all-encompassing as it can, something which patents try to do:

Quote

Any means whereby the blossoming of the pilot chute releases the main chute is encompassed by this invention.

Again, this is counter to the operation of the pull-out.

Therefore I will now say that Bill's patent does not in any way invent the pull-out, try to claim the pull-out, or even cover the pull out in any way.

Did Bill's invention pave the way for pull-outs and other changes to rigs? Absolutely!

It was a brilliant invention (not so much for technology but for a change in the way of thinking) but that doesn't mean he invented the pull out.

If Bill actually played with pull out designs and has other claims, I'm all ears.

So now I'd like to hear his neighbor John Sherman give his side of the story too.

John's pull-out timeline is unclear to me too. The Parachutist quote suggests 1974 for devising the system. Poynters says that the SST/Racer that could come with a pull-out didn't hit the market until 1977, while the earlier Super Swooper Tandem was ripcord operated. So I'd like to know more about the development process and experimentation before the pull-out actually hit the market. (I haven't searched dz.com for old threads - I'll leave that for someone else.)

I don't know all the answers here but I do like to try to have a better, more accurate understanding of parachuting history.