Old School vs New School

[Zennie 0]

Just got back from the DZ. Had an interesting discussion with some folks that have been in this sport a long time (like pre-Para Commander days).
To make a long story short, they were lamenting that the sport, and especially the people in it and their attitudes, has changed considerably. They felt that some of these changes were ruining the sport.
For example, one thing they said they noticed was that in the "old days" experienced jumpers would take new jumpers under their wing and show them the ropes. If they screwed up and did something stupid, they basically told them what they did and helped them make sure they didn't do it again. He said a lot of that old guys watching out for and helping the new guys was going away. Kind of referred to it as a "spirit if skydiving" thing.
So this question goes out to those of you that have been doing this for a while. Do you see a lot of changes in the people? What do you see and what impact do you see it having.
And more important, what advice can you give to us new people to help keep the spirit alive?
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[mikefarmer 0]

I am far from "old school," but you mentioned helping newer jumpers with their mistakes. I have only been jumping for 5 years, and I try my best to help when I can. Most "newbies" are cooler than shit, and will probably be better skydivers than I am before long. The vast majority take constructive criticism for what it is, a safety net. However, there are a select few skydivers (and people in general) who, despite their inexperience, refuse to take accountability for their mistakes. I implore you to help the experienced people by pointing out to these guys (usually guys) that they may hurt themselves or someone else unless they learn from their mistakes. I always end up lecturing on the forums, and again, sorry. But it frustrates me when I say to someone, "Hey, you got awfully close to *^(&% under canopy, awfully low, what happened?" and they say "Hey, man, I saw him, it's cool." This person needs to have the concept of what happens to a canopy when it has its air stolen explained to them, but will not listen long enough to learn some safety and courtesy. Please keep an eye out, and help the old guys with tips on better ways to point out errors!
Mike
I ponder on this dangerous, but irresistible pastime- Pink Floyd

[PalmettoTiger 1]

You may be interested in a little S&M, Zenster.
Skydivers & Mentors, that is.
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[Kris 0]

Quote

But it frustrates me when I say to someone, "Hey, you got awfully close to *^(&% under canopy, awfully low, what happened?" and they say "Hey, man, I saw him, it's cool." This person needs to have the concept of what happens to a canopy when it has its air stolen explained to them, but will not listen long enough to learn some safety and courtesy

Mike, I understand exactly what 7 who you are talking about. For the person we are referring to I think the only thing that will help will be when the spirit of skydiving itself jumps up, bitch-slaps him and orders him to respect the sport.
In my case, it was sloppy packing that made the spirit jump up after I had my first mal. I just hope that in his case he does not get injured or worse from the experience. When he cut Craig's canopy off if he would have been a half-second later crossing in front of Craig one of them would have probably left in a body bag.
I've only been in the sport for just over three years now and the main reason I became a jumpmaster was so that I could help the low-timers and so I could offer them that sometimes needed nudge in the right direction when warranted.
Kris
[--Most people aren't thought about after they're gone. "I wonder where Kris got the plutonium?" is better than most get.]

[LORDOFTHESKY 0]

Zennie wrote;To make a long story short, they were lamenting that the sport, and especially the people in it and their attitudes, has changed considerably. They felt that some of these changes were ruining the sport.
For example, one thing they said they noticed was that in the "old days" experienced jumpers would take new jumpers under their wing and show them the ropes. If they screwed up and did something stupid, they basically told them what they did and helped them make sure they didn't do it again. He said a lot of that old guys watching out for and helping the new guys was going away. Kind of referred to it as a "spirit if skydiving" thing.
So this question goes out to those of you that have been doing this for a while. Do you see a lot of changes in the people? What do you see and what impact do you see it having.
And more important, what advice can you give to us new people to help keep the spirit alive?
Well, I'm not an old timer. I'm not a newbie either.
I'm sort of in the middle but I was a newbie at the time that the oldtimers were still running this sport.
Hi, my name is "Treetop" and I've been jumping for about fourteen years now.
Let me start out by stating that when I was a student or just off student status, anyone charging to "coach" me would be considered a whore! The cry at the time was," Didn't someone teach you to fly for nothing but beer."I guess now you could ask a modern "coach" that same question and the answer could honestly be "No!"
Yes somewhere along the way our sport has been pimped out.
I can't put my finger on an exact date or the location where and when that change occured, but there was a change!
I wish all of you newer folks could have experienced skydiving before it became a money making venture.
Unfortunately, We can't go back, or at least you newbies probably wouldn't. Most of you are scared of single engine planes, expect flushing toilets and hot showers on a dropzone.
If you opt for the anemnities your going to pay for them.
It's unfortunate that the price is the soul of skydiving plus some bucks!
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY

[Dutchboy 0]

[The Dutchboy opens a huge can of worms and asks a question]
Do you think that having the USPA run primarily by DZO's (or should I use the PC term Group Members) is at least partially responsible for this?
A great example of this is the new ISP. No longer can you graduate from student status to start learning from your friends. Now you are expected to pay a "coach" to finish you up.
I've heard a few comments from AFF JM's saying they don't know why anybody would go through all that crap, when you can do alot less to be a "coach" and teach people who already have the basic skills.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Pammi 0]

Well, Mike and Kris, if I ever get any such attitude (I hope I don't now, do I? I've certainly been bitch slapped a time or two already!) towards advice you or anyone else thinks I need, just go ahead and bitch slap me yourselves! LOL! Better that then bouncing!!
Truly, we have one of the best DZ's in the world. I know, I've only jumped at that one, but I bet I'm right anyway. The experienced are always offering to jump with us newbies and I've learned so much from it! You get what you need to be a skydiver, safely and well, from people who can teach you who only want to see you succeed, not what kind of profit they can make off you.
I love you man!
Pammi
"The question is not whether we will die, but how we will live."
http://trak.to/skydivechick

[Zennie 0]

Tiger - Thank j00.... er.... you.
Seriously, this is exactly the kind of thing I think people are talking about. I'm gonna join, even if I don't have enough jump numbers to help yet.
Great idea and concept. Plus it's great way to satisfy the "coaching" requirement without requiring the person to pony up yet more money. How'd you find out about this?
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Let me start out by stating that when I was a student or just off student status, anyone charging to "coach" me would be considered a whore!

This was one of the things he was talking about. How everyone charges for everything.
The other thing he mentioned was how people at some DZs get seriously in your face when you screw up. Fortunately that hasn't happened at my DZ, but I have heard about it at others. In the old days, he said that someone would walk up, tell you you fsckd up and then look after you to make sure you learned from it. He also said the screw-ups were what made the sport fun. Now they're causes of anger & stress.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Zennie 0]

Quote

However, there are a select few skydivers (and people in general) who, despite their inexperience, refuse to take accountability for their mistakes.

Every DZ must have one of these. There is a person at our DZ who would easily win the "Most Likely To Wind Up In The Incident Reports" contest. This person is actually a pretty competent skydiver skills-wise. That's not the problem. It's his attitude that's gonna kill him (or someone else).
The problem isn't failure to take accountability, its a failure to even recognize a mistake. Even worse, it doesn't seem like he recognizes the subtle (and not so subtle) hints that people drop.
So I dunno. Hopefully he'll wake up on his own. A lot more people would jump with him if he just toned it down a few notches.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[skybytch 259]

I've been jumping for 11 years now, and yes, there is a difference in the people now compared to when I started. It was inevitable; there are more people jumping now than there were 10 years ago.
The "profit" question - this is not going to be a popular opinion... I wouldn't mind paying for top level coaching one bit. The jumpers who "charge for their services" have mostly put in years of jumping and spent loads of money gaining the skills they have to offer. For most of them, skydiving is their life, not just their sport. Why shouldn't they make money off what they've dedicated their life to? No one thinks it's bad that camera fliers can make serious money, why is it bad that some of the best skydivers make a living off their skill?
Courses like Skydive U and freefly schools come under fire - yes, the jumps are expensive but at the end of that course the new jumper is good enough to go do some good skydives with. Skydive U produces competent belly fliers. The freefly schools that are popping up are producing competent freefliers. Both teach their disciplines well and the student is the one who wins - gaining lots of flying skills in a minimum number of jumps.
There will always be a place for experienced jumpers to help and mentor novices. Small dz's are in the majority. I learned at a small dz where anyone asking for money to jump with a newbie would have been ostracized. But we didn't have any highly experienced jumpers there other than the AFF/tandem instructors who were always working... we had to teach ourselves and each other. Had I had access to a paid coach back then I would have jumped at the chance, then returned home and passed the knowledge on to my friends - at no charge. I'd do the same today if my home dz were a small one.
Another way things have changed (another unpopular opinion) - when I started jumping only students and really weird people jumped with an AAD. The introduction of the Cypres changed that, but it also changed the type of people who learn to jump. Today most jumpers just off student status can't imagine jumping without a Cypres, something that I've been doing for years now. It seems that many feel that the simple act of installing an AAD makes this a safe sport for them to participate in. SKYDIVING IS NOT A SAFE SPORT!!! PERIOD! If you can't accept that you and/or your friends can die or be seriously injured - even if you/they have a Cypres! - then this is NOT the sport for you.
Other than that, skydivers haven't changed that much. We still party hard. We're still just as addicted to the smell of freefall and nylon as we ever were. And all of us - old timers, middle agers and newbies - love to fly together, on our bellies, our butts, our feet and/or our heads. It's all about the jump anyway, everything else is just politics.
pull and flare,
lisa

[PhillyKev 0]

Being a newbie..but understanding the old school/new school change of things in other realms (followed the Dead for many year for example) I'd say that it's not really something to worry about. Diving is more popular now so you have many more people doing it. They're not all as hardcore and dedicated as the select group of cool ass people that you encounter in the sport. But it's probably not that there are less cool people, just more people in general and some of them aren't as cool. So overall the ratio of cool people may have gone down, but I'm willing to bet the total number of cool people in the sport has gone up. You just have to be more selective in who you spend your time with.
This is just an educated guess, as I haven't been around the sport enough to know for sure, but I'm willing to bet the situation is something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[GeekStreak 0]

I'm still a newbie to skydiving, but I see a lot of people helping people at my DZ. I feel like I could ask anybody out there a question and get good advice. Being a student, though, I still ask my instructor lots of questions before I try anything new.
1111,
GeekStreak

[Zennie 0]

Kev - The Dead analogy is a good one. I wasn't one myself but a lot of my college friends were. I remember when they started getting more popular after In The Dark and a lot of them lamented all the "wannabes" that started hanging out at shows -- being clueless and starting fights & stuff.
So I think your observation is correct -- the more people you have, the more likely you're going to have some people who just don't get it.
As far as skybytch's comments... I don't see anything wrong with people making money in the sport. The instructors and DZOs need to make a living and keep the DZ open.
I will say this... I've been seeing more of the experienced people getting in on 4-ways with less experienced people and offering tips. One guy in particular refuses to let you say "I'm sorry." when you mess up. He says "Don't say that. There's nothing to be sorry about. You're learning." That to me is sort of what the "spirit" is all about.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[cloud9 0]

I started in 1975 quit in 1978 and came back again this year. There have been many changes since the mid-seventies. Some seem for the bad, most seem for the good, but things are different.
In 1975 I had several guys (not many girls around then) with 500 plus jumps fall base for me so I could learn RW. I don't think you see that very often today. These people were instructors and JM's. The first jump course cost you, after that all instruction was pretty much free. Most people taught you things because they wanted better skydivers to jump with. That's not much of a problem today. There are more jumpers and better jumpers out there. In the seventies there were no free flyers. Because you could always get someone to jump with you. I think now a lot of people start free flying because they jump alone even on an Otter load.
I think the jumpers of today are much better then of years past. The whole sport has grown. We were pushing it just by trying out the new square canopies. Now students jump faster canopies then we could immagine.
More is done in the air now then we even considered.
There were less folks around so we could get more help. I can remember being invited on a 10 way when I had about 40 jumps. I'm not sure that would happen today. Unless everyone had 40 jumps.
Anyway the world has moved on, and I don't think skydivers have changed anymore then the rest of the world has. I am enjoying the jumping and the people just as much if not more then I ever did. I don't think the sport is being ruined, its just changing and most folks resist change. If I had not quit for as long as I did I would probably be resisting too.
So to you newer folks, you have made me feel welcome, but I would like to see a little more interaction between the high time jumpers and the low timers.
By the way there were skygods in 1975 too. Yes they acted the same as today.
Bleau Skies

[Dutchboy 0]

Quote

The "profit" question - this is not going to be a popular opinion... I wouldn't mind paying for top level coaching one bit. The jumpers
who "charge for their services" have mostly put in years of jumping and spent loads of money gaining the skills they have to offer.
For most of them, skydiving is their life, not just their sport. Why shouldn't they make money off what they've dedicated their life
to? No one thinks it's bad that camera fliers can make serious money, why is it bad that some of the best skydivers make a living off
their skill?

I don't think you'll see too much disagreement. If people can't make a living then the DZ is going away. Getting coaching from a top notch skydiver is different from having to pay a USPA rated coach to do what other skydivers used to do for free.
Think of it this way, you just got off student status. You've just spent $1-2k, but you can now jump for allot less then before, jump with your more experienced friends (that you probably made as a student), etc. Now you can no longer do that, you have to keep on shelling out the big dollars till you get your A license. You've now gone from 7 high dollar jumps to 20. How many people can't afford this additional needless expense?
I'm glad that none of the experienced jumpers at the two DZ's I normally frequent are unwilling to teach the newbies. I know this isn't true everywhere.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[mikefarmer 0]

Pammi, we could never bitch slap YOU! Besides, you have an awesome attitude! So does Merrick. I sure haven't seen many low time jumpers volunteer to get dragged around the airport by a pickup under a Unit 4! I just wish I could make it out more often and jump with you guys! I hear the sitflying is spectacular; especially the exits!!
Peace Out!
Mike
I ponder on this dangerous, but irresistible pastime- Pink Floyd

[Pammi 0]

Quote

I hear the sitflying is spectacular; especially the exits!!

Bwahahaha!
And thanks! I don't ever want to ever get too lax or cocky and end up paying for it!
Pammi
New pics HERE

[PalmettoTiger 1]

Quote

Tiger - Thank j00.... er.... you.

Great idea and concept. Plus it's great way to satisfy the "coaching" requirement without requiring the person to pony up yet more money. How'd you find out about this?

J00r \/\/3|c0|\/|3 Z3|\|\|13!!!!
Funnily enough, neither Jim Shorter nor I can figure out where we met. The most likely explanation is at POPS Nationals @ X-Keys last year, though neither of us recalls exchanging e-mail addresses (that's how we first discussed it). I think someone may have pointed out to him that I was developing a flock of Ses in need of lots of M, and he got my e-mail addy from the PUSPC page.
No matter how it happened, I'm looking forward to lots of S&M action when I go back north.
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[skreamer 1]

Zennie, there is another really fundamental factor that everybody seems to be over-looking : the planes we skydive from. The club I did my SL and then later AFF at in South Africa only has C182s, so as a result, you spend a lot longer in the plane on the ride to altitude and there are very few of you in the plane - ie you get to know the more experienced skydivers really quickly. Also, you will get invited onto RW jumps that much more quicky - it is pretty hard to ignore the newbie in a C182!
However most DZs these days are using turbines, so you miss out on the camaraderie of a half hour ride to altitude you get in a C182 (luckily you miss out on the farting too!). It is much easier for the newbies to get passed over when there are 18 jumpers in the plane. So the newbies have to get coaching before they have the skills to get invited on RW jumps.
I must say though that from my own personal experience, the experienced CRW and freefly guys are very keen to jump with newbies (without charging for their slot). I have the frustrating problem here in the UK that the CRW and freefly guys want to jump with me and help me, but I still have to meet some RW requirements (paying for one coach is bad enough, try paying for two and then three extra slots per jump!). My question is : why don't the experienced CRW and freefly jumpers insist on having their slots paid?
I don't see too much two-dimensional belly flying in my skydiving future.
Sorry about the long post, but I enjoyed my whinge!
/s

[drjump 0]

In the "old days" jumps only cost $3.50 for a thirty second FF. It was hard to fill the airplane with experienced jumpers, so we all would take a novice 'under our wing' in order to get a load off of the ground; and to help/teach a new jumper to be safe and have fun.
Jumpers, today, seem to have forgotten how to have fun! It seems to be all serious work, to turn the max number of points per dive, to get the longest surf, to go the fastest, to have the smallest rig/canopy. Yes, we used to compete, style, accuracy, speed stars. And that is where the "fun" started leaving this wonderful sport. COMPETITION is wonderful, for those of us that want to do it, but do not forget what this sport is all about and how it started---FUN JUMPING