mbolism 0 #1 August 9, 2001 I just got back from Summerfest at Skydive Chicago (which was awesome, I might add...) and I heard two male jumpers complimenting a female jumper on her swoop, to which they added, "you know, women just don't swoop!" Note that they were nice and didn't say "can't swoop" or "don't want to swoop"...I found it strange all the same, because I WANT TO SWOOP!!!!!! I am probably the only female at my dz who will be doing it, too. Hmmmm...will be doing it. Can't do it yet, because I'm still trying to master regular non-swoopy landings!!! I swooped accidentally once, but I don't know what I did or how I did it! I can't do a whole lotta' swooping with a 170, but I also don't want to break myself so for now that's a good thing. My boyfriend (also a skydiver, but more experienced) is not thrilled with my being thrilled with swoops, understandibly, but I'm good...not getting ahead of myself and landing pretty conservatively, albeit fast! Anyway, comments on the comment, "women just don't swoop" ???? Let's hear from all the female jumpers out there, am I alone in this or what? That comment bothered me and made me want to swoop their a$$es!!!those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #2 August 9, 2001 Male or Female.........BE CAREFUL....If you have never seen someone pile in...it's ugly. I saw a 160lb guy under a 220 sq. ft canopy break his hip. He did a nice PLF but there's only so much you can do coming almost straight down. Be conservative. Ask for coaching from a swoop god at your local DZ. Live to do the next one. "I.....am Powdered Toast Man!"-Ren & StimpyClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #3 August 9, 2001 Swoop'n is not for this chick. I want to slow down close to the ground. I get my jollies in the air. This sport is not very forgiving when it comes to accidents and that seems another way to tempt fate. I'll stick to the conservitive side and stay jumping years from now. SKYDIVING GAVE ME A REASON TO LIVE.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #4 August 9, 2001 I know quite a few female swoopers. There aren't many in comparison to the boys but I know that will change. A very good friend of mine, Kaz, will probably be swooping in the Pond Swooping Nationals at Skydive The Ranch, this month on August 25th-27th. I, too, would like to learn but it won't be for a long time. I know a lot about the skills to do it from my boyfriend who competes in a lot of the swoop competitions but doing it is another story all together. I agree w/ freeflier that anyone attempting it needs to be careful and definitely not try it before they're readyMuch love and blue skies,Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #5 August 9, 2001 would that be Kaz Shekey (I know I butchered that spelling, but it's hooked on phonics correct)? There's a couple of chicks that I know that swoop hard... it's cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rhonda66 0 #6 August 9, 2001 I agree - swooping isn't for me either though my husband loves it. Look at it this way, when was the last time you saw an incident report about a woman hook-turning into the ground?Rhonda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #7 August 9, 2001 Right on Rhonda, you said it right there.SKYDIVING GAVE ME A REASON TO LIVE.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #8 August 9, 2001 Thats just cause chics dont have balls.....LMAO"I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-EverclearClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbolism 0 #9 August 9, 2001 Don't worry everyone!!! I'm not in any hurry to learn it until I feel and my former JM's think I could (which may be never!!!), and believe me, I'm still skeptical about the whole issue...I've read every incident report about low turns, and interestingly enough, saw one go bad Wed. morning on one of the 1st loads of the day at SDC...luckily, the jumper only broke his foot in two places and came back to the dz that afternoon with his foot and leg in a cast. I watched the ambulance drive away after his landing. It does give one a lot to consider, and believe me, if something happens to me skydiving, I hope it's not under a good canopy with stupid pilot error!!! In response to Rhonda66- awesome response!!! I don't think I have seen an incident report involving a woman doing a low hook turn. I guess we all know something the guys don't??? I definitely think female skydivers on the whole are more careful about trying risky things than the guys, although there are always exceptions to every rule...I'll stay safe and no swoops yet! (I've been trying to invent a "girl swoop" that involves a not-tooooo-low turn! Still fun, but safer!?!?) those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grogs 0 #10 August 9, 2001 QuoteI don't think I have seen an incident report involving a woman doing a low hook turn. I guess we all know something the guys don't??? I definitely think female skydivers on the whole are more careful about trying risky things than the guys, although there are always exceptions to every rule...Actually, we have a pretty bad-ass swooper at our DZ. There are some guys who can out-swoop her, but they don't do it as gracefully and most of them have much more heavily loaded canopies than she does. Unfortunately, she broke her tibia and fibia on a landing gone bad 2 weeks ago. I think the comment from just about everyone who heard about it was 'She's the last person I ever expected to get hurt' because she makes it look so damn easy. I think a contributing factor to her getting hurt is she does her maneuvers on toggles rather than front risers (which are generally a bit more forgiving and let you dig yourself out of the hole a little better). I think that might also be a factor in why you don't see as many girls swooping. Some of the girls I've talked to about it say they just don't have the upper body strength to do a good front riser turn. Given the choice between hooking it with the toggles and not hooking it at all, I'd choose to not hook it. I don't know if that's a concious factor in most girls' minds or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #11 August 9, 2001 Hmmm....I started with the toggles. Doing 180's to final. Much less radical in the altitude loss and speed departments. Still gives you some extra speed. I did some of my first 5 ft baby swoops on toggles. Of course this all depends on the canopy...Elipticle, Semi elip, or square. They all react differently to pilot inputs. Doing swoops with toggles would mean that you enter at a lower alti over risers but you are going slower......flip a coin as to which is more dangerous really. "I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-EverclearClay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbolism 0 #12 August 9, 2001 Another good point, I have a huge amount of upper body strength and I can barely, and I mean barely front riser turn! I lifted weights 5 or 6 days a week for three years and it's still almost impossible for me to do. I've only tried it way way up at like 2 or 3 grand and I had to use my whole body to get then to budge. Of course, if you've ever tried to front riser a Monarch you'll know what I'm talking about. I actually bought it from a Skydive Chicago/dz.com'er off the classifieds and when I saw him there this weekend, he said in the time he owned it, he couldn't do anything with the front risers. A built in safety feature if you are tempted to swoop before you are ready to!!! I think when I did my "accidental" swoop, it was due to the way I turned with my toggles...tell your swooper to get well soon! Like I said to another poster, I like to learn from other people's mistakes so I can keep jumping, so thanks for the post!those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tee 0 #13 August 9, 2001 I'm not a "swooper" per say, but I do get a nice "surf" on landing. All I do is hang on the front risers a bit to get some speed up, let up and do some sashays to keep the speed going. With my weight under my canopy, I don't flare at the "oh $hit" stage, I wait until the "OH F$%#" pull the toggles down half down, that planes me out for a good 15-20 foot surf, then have the last bit of toggle for the final lift at the end. Surfs up!Tee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #14 August 9, 2001 QuoteI wait until the "OH F$%#" pull the toggles down half down, that planes me out for a good 15-20 foot surf, then have the last bit of toggle for the final lift at the end. I hear ya there tee!! Thats kinda what I have been playing with. I'll come in doing some "S" turns and if the traffic is clear fly in a really low and close base leg and then do an easy 45 to 90 degree turn to pick up a little speed and then surf it in for like you said 15-20 ft. It probably lokks cheesy from the ground picking your knees up to surf 20 ft but so what....I'm having a blast doing it and eventually those little 45 to 90 trns will grow to the big 180 legends!!! (loooooooong way to go thought fro mejasonA-38658 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbolism 0 #15 August 9, 2001 Hey, that's pretty much what I've been trying, what altitude is your 45-90 turn at? My first "accidental" baby swoop took me a good 15-20 feet, and it was really fun.. Who cares how it looks as long as we're having a good time!!!! Thanks for the tips Tee!those who fear nothing may not live...those who fear everything may never live. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #16 August 9, 2001 Quotewhat altitude is your 45-90 turn at? I'm at between 50-100 ft when I start my final turn. Depends for me on what angle I'm coming in at. If I need to turn 90 to get into the wind I'll make sure to be a little higher than turning in at like 45. buts that just me. I'm still trying to figure it all out! JUst remember what everyone says...be safe!!jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #17 August 10, 2001 WEID,Yes, Kaz Sheekey. Do we have a mutual friend? Kaz is a great female representative in all areas of skydiving, not just swooping. She is not only a good friend but a skydiver that I look up to very muchMuch love and blue skies,Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #18 August 10, 2001 QuoteI think a contributing factor to her getting hurt is she does her maneuvers on toggles rather than front risers (which are generally a bit more forgiving and let you dig yourself out of the hole a little better). I think that might also be a factor in why you don't see as many girls swooping. Some of the girls I've talked to about it say they just don't have the upper body strength to do a good front riser turn. Okay, keep in mind I am not speaking from experience. From what my boyfriend has told me about how to perform a swoop, yes, you use the front risers to turn and then switch to toggles to finish out. However, even though this is the typical method, even those who use their front risers can and do get injured. As far as upper body strength goes, I think woman can handle the front risers fine. It may take a bit more strength but I know, on my canopy, their are handles on my front risers and after my canopy opens, I always play w/ my front risers performing hard turns while I'm still high up in the air and can play. It's never been a problem strength-wise for me to do and I'm not the strongest of girls. Much love and blue skies,Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grogs 0 #19 August 10, 2001 QuoteHmmm....I started with the toggles. Doing 180's to final. Much less radical in the altitude loss and speed departments. Still gives you some extra speed. I did some of my first 5 ft baby swoops on toggles. Of course this all depends on the canopy...Elipticle, Semi elip, or square. They all react differently to pilot inputs. Doing swoops with toggles would mean that you enter at a lower alti over risers but you are going slower......flip a coin as to which is more dangerous really.[disclaimer]Ok, I am *not* a swooping god. As a 200 jump chump I'm certainly not an authority on how to swoop, so what I'm saying is what I've heard talking to the swoopers at the DZ over beers, read online, etc. Skymonkeyone could offer you a much better personal explanation of the differences based on his flying, but unfortunately he's at Quincy (and I'm not )[/disclaimer]The problem with the toggle hook turn isn't really with altitude loss or the amount of speed picked up. If you land in a hard turn, you're probably going to the hospital regardless of what type of turn you made. There are 2 problems with a toggle turn. First, your body gets swung farther out from under the canopy than it would on a front riser turn - that's why the alti loss isn't as bad as with a front riser turn, where the canopy dives more and you remain more 'centered'. The second problem with the toggle turn is that you're actually deforming the rear of the canopy when you pull down the steering toggle. A front riser turn doesn't do that, it just makes the canopy tilt forward and left/right, but the shape remains mainly intact. What these 2 factors mean is that when you're in a hard toggle turn and you release it quicky, 2 things have to happen. First your body has to swing back under the canopy, and then the tail of the canopy has to reassume its shape and begin flying again. Until these 2 things happen, the canopy will not flare. So with a front riser turn you have a much better chance to 'dig yourself out of a hole' if you realize you've started the turn too low and have to flare in a hurry.mbolism: You aren't alone with the high front riser pressure. On my Silhouette I can barely manage to do a 360 front riser before they get pulled out of my hands, and I could never even think about reversing the turn for a good 3-4 seconds, so no 90-270 landings for me As I understand it, riser pressure generally decreases as you downsize, so when you step down a size or 2 in your canopy you should have a much easier time of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tee 0 #20 August 10, 2001 Quote what altitude is your 45-90 turn at I don't even do a turn, I hang on BOTH risers while coming in straight, then let up and keep up the speed with the sashays...it works great!Tee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #21 August 10, 2001 Quote"you know, women just don't swoop!"Well, don't tell BRIGITTE LISS that! She placed 9th out of 19 in the Intermediate division of the 2001 Para-Performance Pro Blade Competition! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #22 August 10, 2001 I SWOOP!!!!! fast and fun! Also....I started medical school this week. I know that's beside the point, but I'm really pumped about it, and I just wanted to say it! YIPPEE!!!Peace~Lindsey"I live with fear and terror, but sometimes I leave him and go skydiving!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #23 August 10, 2001 Congrats Lindsey!!Hope you'll still have enough time to jump! pull and flare,lisa----I am a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Therefore, I am perfect! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #24 August 10, 2001 I'm a chick who doesn't swoop. Wish I could but now that I've hurt myself it's slow and soft and easy for me.pull and flare,lisa----I am a nobody. Nobody's perfect. Therefore, I am perfect! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #25 August 10, 2001 Like hottamaly I too get my jollies in the air. I am a freeflyin/fallin chick and I love to be airborne. I don't dislike the canopy ride, but it just gets me down intime to pack and go back up again. And because I've heard that swooping is addictive, I'll just stay away from it alltogether. Currently I get my kicks out of jumping with as much skin exposed as possible. That cool crisp air just feels so good on my... well, you know!!!dove Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
