Sisyphus

[bill2 0]

Careful there! If that's terrorism, what is bombing a country and killing three thousand innocent civilians? What is developing new bombs designed specifically to kill people who try to hide?
__________________________
Civilians have died in every war. I think the US has made a huge effort to minimize the killing of civilians in Afghanastan. Far more than Al Queda ever did. What would the alternative be? We should defend ourselves against any country that attacks us, because we're afraid of killing civilians? And what's wrong with developing better bombs? they're trying to hide in caves, and we should play fair and go run up the hill with pistols and lose our own guys? No way, if the technology exists that will help our side and minimize our casualties, we should use it.

[skreamer 1]

So, Britain didn't promise the Palestinians a homeland in exchange for help in WW1 then? The name Lawrence of Arabia ring a bell?
If you are going to point fingers, then how about Britain promising that land first to the Palestinians and then to the Jews after WW2?
Don't really agree with either of the two Bills... (guess that means I'm sitting on the fence somewhere between the radical right and left, dodging bullets and white dove shit! )
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[billvon 2,435]

>I think the US has made a huge effort to minimize the killing of civilians in
>Afghanastan. Far more than Al Queda ever did.
Perhaps, but in the end, we killed more of their civilians by accident than they did intentionally. Neither one is more right than the other - I think it's fair to say that it's wrong no matter who does it.
>What would the alternative be? We should defend ourselves against any country
>that attacks us, because we're afraid of killing civilians?
No, we have to defend ourselves. However, in this one, we can't claim any sort of moral high ground. We are going to win because we're bigger, not because we're more ethical or moral or caring.
>And what's wrong with developing better bombs? they're trying to hide in caves,
> and we should play fair and go run up the hill with pistols and lose our own >guys?
As that very reason was used to justify killing 350,000 civilians during WWII, it seems to be a popular one. Let's pray that we don't use the same rationale in Afghanistan that we used at the end of WWII to minimize American casualties.
-bill von

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

And when the next Bin Laden comes along, and we do exactly the same thing (i.e. blow a few thousand innocent people to bits but miss all the terrorists we were trying to find) will we be better off? Will the images of destruction that make people feel so patriotic disguise the fact that we've failed again?

I'm sure if it is a Democrat leading the nation next time, it will be the right thing.
Skydivers...they're just plain cool!
Chris

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Skreamer,
Good point Will, so do you think the Turks would have classified TEL and his Hejda forces as terrorist? Would the slaughter at Aqaba (the famous 'no prisoners' charge, I think) have been considered a war crime?
Depends which side of the bayonet you are on, and who is left standing at the end, huh?
TE Lawrence, soldier, rebel, philosopher, the last of the poet warriors.....
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible." from The Seven Pillars Of Wisdom.
Cya
D

[bill2 0]

So, Britain didn't promise the Palestinians a homeland in exchange for help in WW1 then? The name Lawrence of Arabia ring a bell?
If you are going to point fingers, then how about Britain promising that land first to the Palestinians and then to the Jews after WW2?
Don't really agree with either of the two Bills... (guess that means I'm sitting on the fence somewhere between the radical right and left, dodging bullets and white dove shit! )
Will
____________________________
No arguements there, Will. That particular area of land has changed hands countless times for the past couple of thousand years. We should be pointing the finger at Britain, although I'm sure the Brits will have something to say about that. I'm not saying that Israel is the innocent here, I don't think there are any innocents in this conflict besides the children, but I get tired of the way Israel is always portrayed as the bad guy here and the Palestinians are the pure and helpless underdogs. How about some of those peace activists from Europe and US who are acting as shields for the Palestinians going to Israel to act as shields for the suicide/homicde bombers to protect the Jews from the Palestinians?

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Soviet Union 20,000,000 casualties civilian and military

That number is false, it was an abritary number choosen by Stalin, the real number actually isn't known but isn't believed to be above 10,000,000. Although that is still a whole lot of people.
A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapieze, I can fly

[billvon 2,435]

>I'm sure if it is a Democrat leading the nation next time, it will be the right thing.
What the heck does political party have to do with it? Both democrats and republicans have presided over wars. I get really sick of the desire of some people to blame all the country's evils on the "other" political party.
-bill von

[AggieDave 6]

I wanted to further my point about the number of Soviet casulties. Stalin choice an arbitrary number that was very high so he could push in the negotiations after the war to get more land. Generally speaking, basically a lot of Eastern Europe was given to the USSR due to the crying game that Stalin played.
I will never applaud the USSR for their contributions during WWII due to the facts that led up to the war and their positions during the war. Stalin wanted the west crushed by Hitler so he could defeat the Germans and make the world "safe" for his own brand of Socialism. The Terror, Stalin's internal political cleansing caused more citizen casulties in the USSR then many countries suffered fighting in WWII. If you want to talk about terrorism, study up on Stalin, he's not the Uncle Joe you may think he is.
So, Skreamer, are you saying that the Allies would have won the war if the US stayed totally out of it. Not just actual fighting, but the financial and material support. Brittian would not have survived the Battle of Britian without the support that the US gave them.
When making a political arguement you can not let yourself fall into the trap of looking at a single point, such as casulities, there are many other factors to consider.
A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapieze, I can fly

[quade 3]

Quote

If you want to talk about terrorism, study up on Stalin, he's not the Uncle Joe you may think he is.

Dave --
I don't think you'll find too many Stalin supporters even if you try.
Man, do you really think everyone is a communist? I mean, hey, I live in California and I'm no fan of Bush, but those facts don't mean I'm a Stalin lovin' commie!
quade
http://futurecam.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quade, I'm not McCarthy, I wasn't saying that.
I was just mentioning that the acts of terrorism committed against his own citizens by his edict was very bad, worst then some people realize.
That and people sometimes seem to forget those things when they start referencing what the Soviets did during WWII.
So, I've figured it out, you're a Khrushchev lovin' commie, aren't you... j/k
A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapieze, I can fly

[lummy 4]

Just thought I'd share an interesting article by Jon Carrol in todays SF Chronicle....
I do have a few things to say now
by JON CARROLL
I HAVE READ a whole lot about the conflict
between the Israelis and the Palestinians over the
past three years. I have read about Oslo from a guy
who was actually there; I have read about Camp
David from two guys who were actually there; I
have heard about the Balfour Declaration and the
British occupation and the King David Hotel and
the Yom Kippur War and the Six-Day War and the
camps and the borders and the bombings and the
Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip.
And I have heard the arguments. I have heard the
word "genocide" thrown around freely; I have heard
the word "atrocity" used like ketchup at a French-
fry convention. I know what the Saudis claim to
believe; I know what the Jordanians claim to
believe; I have seen so many words contradicted by
so many actions that my brain reels.
I have heard the word "terrorists" transformed to
mean "people we don't like."
And rhetoric! My e-mail is filled with rhetoric.
Rhetoric in the name of G- d, rhetoric in name of
Allah the most merciful blessings be on his name,
calls for war in the name of peace, historical
imperatives, holy places, the blessings of
martyrdom, the necessity of destroying homes.
And at night I have imagined I have heard: the
rumble of tanks, the wailing of women, the songs of
warriors doomed to die, the muffled thud of feet
carrying coffins, the clatter of helicopter gunships,
the murmurs from the makeshift hospitals, the last
soft breaths of babies dying in a cause they did not
know was entirely justified by the airtight case
presented before the international body.
I want silence more than anything. I want everyone
to shut the hell up so we can all hear the crying. I
want everyone to dip a finger into the deep pool
and taste the blood.
LISTEN TO ME. It doesn't matter who's right. Let
me say that again: Right now, it doesn't matter
who's right. Stop with the screeds. It doesn't matter
who's right.
Peace making requires more courage than war
making. Peace making require more intelligence
than war making. Peace making requires patience,
time, serenity and an open mind.
I know about the numerous failures of peace
making in the Mideast. But if we are to be humans,
hope is always an obligation. We must always start
again. We have just lived through a century of mass
deaths, deaths in unimaginable numbers. Six million
Jews killed by Nazis, at least 8.5 million people
killed by Stalin, 800,000 Armenians murdered by
Turks; 100,000 Kurds murdered by Saddam
Hussein. One million Cambodians killed by the
Khmer Rouge; 800,000 Tutsis of Rwanda
murdered by Hutus in 100 days.
Do you know whether the Tutsis or the Hutus had a
better claim to their disputed lands? Are you
interested in the validity of the political claims made
by the Armenians?
THE LAST TWO times we entered a world war,
only a few people believed that it would happen.
Generals on both sides of World War I thought it
would last six months. At the beginning of World
War II, the British called it "the phony war."
I think we are close to a regional conflict. Because
of the strategic and economic importance of the
area, a regional conflict could become larger. Iraq
lobs some bombs at Israel, or Israel hits some
targets in Syria -- it wouldn't take much. The sense
of justification on both sides is already in place. The
sense of entitlement on both sides is already in
place.
Maybe the 21st century could be different from the
20th; maybe the great powers could act in concert
to prevent carnage. Diplomacy is not appeasement;
the best diplomacy is war without the blood and the
guns. It must be our common goal.
Original from here
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/16/DD86963.DTL
Conjunction Junction, what's your function?

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

As an American, I'm amused when every other country thinks the US way of doing anything is so wrong,

It's my observation that the USA wants the rest of the world to be like the USA.
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

It's my observation that the USA wants the rest of the world to be like the USA

Name me one country who whole hearted doesn't believe that the whole world should be like them. That's right, you can't name one, due to the nature of people and the loyality to their beliefs and their belief in their country (or lack of belief and the belief in another country, etc).
A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapeze, I can fly

[Sebazz1 2]

"Peace making requires more courage than war making. Peace making require more intelligence than war making. Peace making requires patience, time, serenity and an open mind"
Amen. Nice find Lummy............if only...........
SEBAZZ.......

[billvon 2,435]

>Name me one country who whole hearted doesn't believe that the whole world
>should be like them.
Niger. In the capital city there is a lot of crime, white vs black nonsense going on, but get out into the desert and you'll find some quite happy people who do not want to be like us, or want us to be like them. They can't understand why I would work 50-60 hours a week, or why I wouldn't have a family, but they figure that's just white people stuff. It's not that they're ignorant (when I told one of the kids I was a skydiver, he proceeded to pantomine an entire jump including the pull and the flare) it's just that they have all they need and see no reason to be like us (or vice versa.)
If anything, it's more annoying to the peace corps workers out there than to the natives. They dig wells for them, and give them seeds to plant during the dry season to increase their dietary variety - in many cases even plant gardens for them. But when the volunteer leaves the gardens dry up and the tomatoes die. They just see no need to change something they've been doing their entire lives, going back a thousand years.
Being there also taught me a lot about what it is to be poor and rich. The native Zarma living in Niamey were poor; other people had a lot more than they did, and they were always getting evicted and harassed by the 'rich' people who lived there. But out in Hamdallaye and Sandire, the people were all well off. They all had families, good wells, and lots of millet. By our standards they had nothing, but they didn't have anyone there to tell them they were poor, and so they stayed rich and happy.
It also taught me a lot about race relations. When I first showed up in Sandire, I was the first white man they had ever seen (the other white people were female peace corps volunteers.) Everyone wanted to shake my hand and tell me stories in either Zarma or heavily accented French that I barely understood. The reason I was welcomed was simple - the only 'real' white people they had ever met were peace corps volunteers, white people who had some bizarre ideas but at least tried to help them. How much easier would race relations be if every first meeting of two peoples was like that?
I think the previous poster got it right - the USA expects that the rest of the world be like the USA. We are offended when people eat dog, and laugh at the indians who find it offensive that we eat cow. We try to force people to live up to our standards of fairness, equality and democracy, and often end up messing things up royally because we don't know what we're doing. We can't imagine that a different way of doing things might work, let alone be better. We would avoid a lot of problems if we'd just accept other peoples as they are, and ignore them rather than try to change them if we disagree with how they're doing things.
-bill von

[quade 3]

Quote

It's my observation that the USA wants the rest of the world to be like the USA.

It's my observation that the U.S. doesn't give a flying freek about you being anything like the U.S. as long as you are; open to buying our products, not denying us the right to buy another country's products (mostly oil), not turning our products into weapons against us (flying jets into buildings).
In other words, we're pretty much capitalists. If you just understand that everything works out fine.
As long as say, Kadaffi doesn't screw with us, he can run his own country any damn way he feels.
We didn't really give a flying freek about Bin Ladin until September 11.
So, do what you want, just don't screw with the money.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

We can't imagine that a different way of doing things might work, let alone be better. We would avoid a lot of problems if we'd just accept other peoples as they are, and ignore them rather than try to change them if we disagree with how they're doing things.

Then maybe the UN should be disbanded, huh? Since each country and people have their own way of doing things, maybe the rest of the European powers should keep their noses out of everyone else's business too. I guess I should have quantified my statement with the condition that the country be one with international influence economically and militarily.
The US gets a bad wrap from other countries for being the US, maybe they should take a bit of that medicine too and leave us alone.
Although this tangent of our discussion is interesting, we could go around and around for hours and days on end...A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapeze, I can fly

[ChromeBoy 0]

This song belongs in this thread. Good lyrics...
"Civil War"
(Slash / McKagan / Rose)
Special Thanks Niven / James
"What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Some men you just can't reach...
So, you get what we had here last week,
which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N' I don't like it any more than you men." *
Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before
Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before
My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars
D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land
And
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more
My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars
"We practice selective annihilation of mayors
And government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer" **
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war
I don't need one more war
Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway

[billvon 2,435]

>Then maybe the UN should be disbanded, huh?
No more than the US government should be disbanded in the name of state's rights.
>Although this tangent of our discussion is interesting, we could go around and
>around for hours and days on end... I guess thats why people with personalities
> like the ones here enjoy this sort of discussion, since it is obvious that people's
> preconceved ideals will not be changed, but we have to continue the point trying
> to get the other side to admit defeat, which won't happen.
I post on threads like this for the same reason I talk to someone who's doing something dangerous while they're skydiving. They may listen, they may not, but at least they've heard another side of the argument. It might even make them think.
People who disagree with me based on a discussion is no tragedy. I may not like it - I may even think they're doing something really stupid - but that's life. People who go off and do something stupid because they've never even considered the issue - that is a tragedy.
-bill von

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

No more than the US government should be disbanded in the name of state's rights

Save your confederate money boys, the South will rise again!
j/k
Sorry, I guess since I haven't slept in a couple days stuff like that makes me laugh...
A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapeze, I can fly

[bill2 0]

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an American, I'm amused when every other country thinks the US way of doing anything is so wrong,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's my observation that the USA wants the rest of the world to be like the USA.
__________________________________
The USA would be happy to let the rest of the world do its own thing. The problem is that, when there's a flareup or natural disaster somewhere, people want the US to go in and fix it. If we don't fix it, then we're selfish isolationist filth. If we do go in and fix, then we're imperialist blood sucking capitalists. I don't think the US has the answer to everything, but I don't see people risking death to sneak into Iraq/Egypt/China to live that lifestyle either. If you don't want us nasty imperialists to force our way of life on you, then don't keep expecting the US to keep fixing up the world's problems. Expecially when many times what caused them, or prevents that region from cleaning it up themselves, is their political system or way of life. And if we are expected to keep cleaning them up, then you can bet that we have the right to insist on some changes in the way they run their country. Democracy and capitalism may not be the final answer to all our problems but it sure as hell beats socialism/communism/royal houses/dictatorships, etc.

[billvon 2,435]

This one is pretty fitting too I think:
A memo to a higher office
An open letter to the powers-that-be
To a god, a king, a head of state
A captain of industry
To the movers and the shakers
Can't everybody see
It ought to be second nature
I mean, the places where we live
Let's talk about this sensibly
We're not insensitive
I know progress has no patience
But something's got to give
I know you're different, you know I'm the same
We're both too busy to be taking the blame
I'd like some changes but you don't have the time
We can't go on thinking it's a victimless crime
No one is blameless but we're all without shame
We fight the fire while we're feeding the flames
Folks have got to make choices
And choices got to have voices
Folks are basically decent
Conventional wisdom would say
Well, we read about the exceptions
In the papers every day
It ought to be second nature
At least, that's what I feel
Now I lay me down in dreamland
I know perfect's not for real
I thought we might get closer
But I'm ready to make a deal
Today is different and tomorrow the same
It's hard to take the world the way that it came
Too many rapids keep on sweeping along
Too many captains keep on steering us wrong
It's hard to take the heat, It's hard to lay blame
To fight the fire while we're feeding the flames
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I kept thinking about this choon when I was reading the posts last nite, been kinda busy ths avo to post the lyrics...
Its 'One World', by John Martyn
Some of us live like princes,
Some of us live like queens.
Most of us live just like me
And we don't know what it means,
To take our place in one world.
To make our peace in one world.
To make our way in one world,
To have our say in one world.
If you ain't got two words to say,
Then I can't talk to you.
No use crying, there's been no crime,
I say it's just the way the wind blows.
Just the name of the game,
The way of the world.
The way of the world.
Just the way of the world,
Just the way of the world.
Its a cold and lonely,
Cold and lonely,
Cold and lonely world, for some.
Such a cold and lonely,
Cold and lonely,
Cold and lonely world.
It's just a cold and lonely world for some.
There's one world, like it or not;
There's one world, believe it or not.
There's one world.
There's one world, leave it or not;
One world, like it or not,
There's one world.
Some of us live like princes,
Some of us live like queens.
Most of us live just like me
And we don't know what it means,
To make our peace in one world.
To take our place in one world.
To make our love in one world,
Make our way in one world.
There's one world,
One world.
Go it yersel Big John, yeah........
Cya
D

[skyhawk 2]

um ive read over and over again about other countrys expecting the US to help if they do the get shitted on if they dont they get shitted on
when does this happen ?????
i cant speak for other countrys but i dont know anyone and australia as a hole does not expect anything from the US we only "complain" when you go in and screw things up even more. also per capita and comparitivly ecomicly quite a few countrys give alot more then the US, also some one said you dont see people sneaking to china, egypt etc, well seens how the US is so giving why is it canada followed buy australia that accept the most refugees, and add the fact we where getting a ton of flack for refusing to let a boatfull land in australia.
if anything it is mearly the ppl/media of the US that is telling you that the world expects you to help then winges when you do.
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit