Big tandem on Prozac??

[Muenkel 0]

I actually have a theory that 1/2 the people on an antidepressant or antianxiety drug are on them because there is someone in their lives that really should be on them.
Let's face it, the ones who should be on meds, don't take them. Therefore, they drive the ones around them nuts and the sane ones end up on the meds.
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.
Chris

[Jessica 0]

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Some people that are "depressed" ought to change their jobs and hop off the gerbil wheel they have been running on all their lives.

And what's going to give them the impetus to do this? A fairy godmother's magic wand?
Depression is a disease. There are people prescribed antibiotics who may or may not have a bacterial infection. I'd rather see that happen occasionally then someone lose a leg to gangrene because the doctor's catious about overprescribing.
Depressed people can't just "freaking get over it." Any more than someone with cancer can just muster up enough will power to kill the malignant cells.
I agree with Michele. I don't care if this isn't "directed at any particular individual here or elsewhere;" it's still not very nice. People kill themselves all the time. And even if it never gets that bad, there are people just listlessly existing, horribly unhappy, wondering why they're alive. Meds have a stigma, and they shouldn't.

[Jessica 0]

Oh, and skydiving's GREAT for depression.

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[rgoper 0]

Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[chicagoskydiver 0]

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Depressed people can't just "freaking get over it."

I agree. That's like telling someone who has diabetes or liver disease to "get over it"...it's a medical condition that can't just be willed away, and it's in no way a sign of weakness or a character flaw.
Hackey

[gale 0]

That's exactly right.
I in no way like medication and do not like it being perscribed to people in a haphazardous way. But people do kill themselves every day and if you haven't been there you don't know what it's like. You should thank your lucky stars that you don't have to deal with doctors, psychiatrists, pharmacies, side-effects, medications, and closed-minded, ignorant people who you have to hide the truth from. (No, this isn't directed to anyone in particular.)
For those of you who don't understand; get sick, stay that way for years, and then talk to me. Medication may be bad, but staying sick is much, much worse.
Gale
(PS if you have concerns about the jumpers mental state or medications, you could just ask for a doctors note expressing their fitness to fly. I wouldn't think that would be a problem. That will cover your own ass too btw.)
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?

[jfields 0]

Nowhere did I suggest that medications don't have valid uses. My issue is partially with doctors that are unwilling or unable to see the bigger picture. Instead of pills, sometimes therapy or psychiatry might be the answer. In the case of heart disease or obesity, perhaps things as mundane as diet and exercise. I like that simplistic approach over something like the "fake fats" in foods that are engineered not to be absorbed in the human body.
The other objection I have is that some people are unwilling to make changes in their lives to non-medically remove the source of their problems. Some people work 80-hour weeks in jobs they hate, live with people they don't love, then wonder why they have high blood pressure. In some cases, lifestyle change is more effective than meds.
Using depression as an example, yes, there are plenty of people that can benefit from medication where other avenues don't work. But is every person that is a little unhappy for awhile in need of a year's supply of Prozac? No.
Going briefly to Jessica's antibiotics example... It is one worthy of discussing. Our society's willingness to hit every sniffle with antiobiotics has caused problems. Do we all really need antibacterial handsoap? There is a growing medical feeling that many of our autoimmune problems and allergies are a result of our immune systems not getting properly "trained" by exposure to germs and allergens. Is the very sanitary nature of "civilized" societies actually breeding autoimmune weakness back into the gene pool? The fact that we do prescribe drugs so often has led to more and more bacteria that are increasingly resistant to antibiotics. Sometime, when we really need to crush a life-threatening infection, we won't be able to do so because it will be immune to all the remedies we have been overusing.
This aquired immunity to medication is built up over time. Aside from the physical aspects, are we in some sense socially engineering ourselves a future of highly-medicated people that can't cope without chemical crutches? In some small way, I believe that medicine should have a stigma, if for no other reason than to instill the respect powerful meds deserve and to help save them for the times when they are really needed. After a childhood of hastily-prescribed ritalin and an adulthood of valium and prozac, what do you then offer someone when they begin to feel blue again?
The objections I have aren't with people who really need meds. I'm not an unfeeling bastard that thinks people should commit suicide because someone withheld depressions meds from them. I just feel that our medical system and society hasn't been living up to our duty to instill non-medical coping skills and to present alternatives to medication where it might not be needed.
I have an extended family member with bipolar. Her world before and after meds were night and day. Right now, she does need them. However, doctors and family are teaching her to deal with some of her issues in other ways. From a max of around 13 simultaneous prescriptions, she is down to about 2 or 3. She may end up on them for the rest of her life. Who knows? I just think we need to me more judicious in our use of medicine.
I think the discussion is interesting, and I hope my opinions don't anger too many people, even if they are different. It is just my personal $.02.
Justin

[rgoper 0]

**I think the discussion is interesting, and I hope my opinions don't anger too many people, even if they are different. It is just my personal $.02.**
i think this is an interesting thread as well. i never thought about it, people being on meds that is, until now. but anyway, what i wanted to say, is you shouldn't have to explain your opinion. my ol' daddy used to always tell me (he was military, 22 years) "i might not agree with everything you say, but, i'll defend to the death your right to say it" that has stayed with me all of these years. there is a valid point made in this thread, how long before we're immune to the meds? it's definitely worth pondering. hell, don't worry, just be happy! Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Sebazz1 2]

I've taken some big tandems before and I wish I could have taken some Prozac to calm my nerves down
Sebazz........

[rgoper 0]

hell, might as well jump! Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Lindsey 0]

I think that your point that medications are overprescribed and over used is valid. In my private practice as a social worker, seeing MANY depressed individuals (most of my clients were HIV pos.), the absolute last resort was going to the psychiatrist for meds. There are a lot of things that show better outcomes than medications and therapy....exercise, for example, has been shown repeatedly in studies to have a better outcome for depression than either psychotherapy or medications. Also, helping people to put things in their lives that give their lives meaning goes a lot further than antidepressants (perhaps jumping from a plane). BUT....there are people who are so depressed that even starting anything else requires a boost of some sort. SSRI medications are very good for that. Likewise, if you want to talk about hypercholesterolemia or type II diabetes (usually non-insulin dependent, but sometimes requiring insulin), there are definately behavioral changes (usually) that people can make to improve these conditions. However, a doctor would be incredibly negligent if he/she told their patients to go exercise/change diet and then did NOT medically treat the condition.....both of which have extremely deleterious outcomes when untreated. I also believe that most doctors do counsel patients on healthy lifestyles and habits, but convincing a person to change those habits is a huge uphill battle.....Physicians are not the keepers of humanity, but are charged with treating illness, and helping to prevent illness when possible. To add....the ritalin example. I agree that these stimulants are also over-prescribed....but as with the depression example, ADHD left untreated has a very predictable course that includes depression and conduct disorder. ADHD is a brain problem.....the neurons of the pre-frontal cortex are understimulated. If my child were in this situation, I would definately prefer that he were treated with ritalin or the like than to see him become one of the "bad" kids.....which is how these kiddos tend to become labeled....once there, they're in a lot tougher situation than an adult who takes prozac. You seem to lack a basic understanding of the impact of illnesses that you seem to think should go untreated. I think your basic point about overtreatment has some merit, but we should be extremely thankful that we are able to treat many illnesses that in the not-too-distant past left people suffering....
you can live in happiness too, like the oompa loompa dooba de do....

[rgoper 0]

**(most of my clients were HIV pos.)**
hell, i'd be depressed to if i was HIV pos. out of curiosity (i know, it killed the cat) what do you prescribe to an individual who is HIV pos? if i had it, i don't believe i'd have a reason to continue on, unless that is somebody prescribed me the "good stuff" i feel sorry for people in that position....

Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Sebazz1 2]

Lots of people with HIV lead very productive and positive lives. Most I believe have to take med cocktails though. Meaning tons of different kind of medication.
Sebazz........

[Jessica 0]

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You seem to lack a basic understanding of the impact of illnesses that you seem to think should go untreated. I think your basic point about overtreatment has some merit, but we should be extremely thankful that we are able to treat many illnesses that in the not-too-distant past left people suffering....

Yes, EXACTLY what I think, but sans the profanity.

[jfields 0]

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You seem to lack a basic understanding of the impact of illnesses that you seem to think should go untreated.

I don't necessarily think certain illnesses should go untreated. I think that we aren't as discerning as we should be in finding out whether people really have the said illnesses, or to what degree they need medication.
I also don't totally fault doctors. As I said, I see it as a broader societal problem. If a person is screaming for meds and their doctor won't prescribe them, they will just find another doctor. The patient can be as much or more of a problem. But where is that person's family? Why aren't they being involved as well? Depending on the problem, family involvement and caring can be a better remedy.
As for knowing about the impact of illness, I'll give you a few more details about the example I referred to earlier. A family member has bipolar. It was ignored by doctors then misdiagnosed. The person ended up in a completely manic state and eventually found themself sitting in jail with no memory of what they'd done. While there, the state didn't mess around. Because of the things she was saying, they figured out the issue and gave her lithium. The change was incredible. I visited there and helped in some small ways get her out into the care of a different doctor.
She was cycling up and down for awhile, but nowhere near as badly as before. She was gradually whittled down from over a dozen drugs at once to a few. Like I said before, she may be one them forever. But if she honestly needs them, as I believe she does, that is fine. They help her live a happier and saner life.
I don't think certain medicines are bad or that certain ilness should go untreated. However, certain people ought not be given drugs just because they want them. Why do we have tons of ads for prescription drugs on tv? The answer is that it is a marketing ploy to have people go in to their doctor and say, "I want this drug". Whether you are ill or not, you are still bombarded by the message that drugs help you live a better life. Got indigestion? Take pepcid, then eat that gutbuster sandwich. Got allergies? Take clarinex, then dance through fields of daisies. Overweight? Take Phen-phen and look trim. Whoops. That one didn't turn out so well. Why don't we just let people wait until there is actually an illness before recommending going for medical help. Some often-abused and easily-obtainable prescription drugs are more potent than illegal drugs, yet there is no "War on Drugs" against them.
Anyway, I'm babbling again.....
Justin

[steve1 5]

I know people who are not chronically depressed who take anti-depressants. Why? Because this drug is helping to keep them alive. The danger (for them is not suicide) it is the stress in their lives that is killing them. Sure it would be nice to just quit your job and do something else, but again it is not as simple as that. Many of the people I know have the well being of their family to consider and this includes finances. Some people invest years and years of expensive education only to find they are in a profession where the stress is at times unbearable. What are they to do, go get a job pumping gas somewhere and watch their family go bankrupt because they don't have enough money, or are they going to tough it out. If an anti-depressant helps them, why not? Shouldn't this be a personal decision. Most physicians will readily prescribe them to an over-stressed person. Sure exercise, thinking positively, or even meditation can help, but I seriously doubt if they can compete with the good an anti-depressant can do. The chances of heart-attack and stroke are greatly reduced for people who are on them vs. not. Maybe the gene pool would be stronger if we just let these people go ahead and die off, but I'd just as soon keep my friends around a little longer. They are doing the best they know how, to cope. It isn't that they are just looking for a quick fix for everything. Steve

[Jessica 0]

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Our society's willingness to hit every sniffle with antiobiotics has caused problems.

This isn't what I meant in my original example, by the way.
This is closer:
"Doctor, my throat hurts BAD."
"Well, let's get a culture. It might be strep, it might not. We'll go ahead and treat you with antibiotics in the meantime."
"Thanks doc."
Do you eat beef Justin? Talk about overconsumption of antibiotics.
Anyway.
For the record: I won't even take OTC medications, generally speaking. I don't like chemicals in my body. But not so very long ago, I turned out to be very grateful for the existence of antidepressants for a short while. Attitudes like yours kept me away from them for way too long. Thus my emotional response to your "insensitive rant."

[Lindsey 0]

How do you do the "in reply to" thing....that would be so helpful.....
Just FYI.....they go ahead and prescribe antibiotics for strep because it can lead to bad outcomes if not treated, and the lab test for strep is only like 80% accurate....
you can live in happiness too, like the oompa loompa dooba de do....

[Jessica 0]

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Just FYI.....they go ahead and prescribe antibiotics for strep because it can lead to bad outcomes if not treated, and the lab test for strep is only like 80% accurate....

I know, that was my point. That a little overprescription isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Click on the FAQ up there to learn how to quote from another post.

[GroundZero 0]

Phree,
The Eclipse tandem rigs are rated at 525 lbs.... meaning 280 for the student, 60 lbs for the gear and the TM needs to weigh 185 or less... is my math correct?
I've taken a few 280 ponnders on strong gear also...(500 lb limit)...
Chris

[PhreeZone 15]

Opps... got that one and the other system mixed up on the limits
And at 525 that means a 185 instructor, at 500 thats a 160 TM. The 185 is about middle of the road I guess, I just would'nt want to see that landing on a no wind day....
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[GroundZero 0]

Phree,
I take 230-240 lb students on our tandem canopy on no wind days with the 330... (i'm about 162 lbs naked....).
I've also done 280 lb students on the (Strong Master 425) when I was just a few pounds lighter. The problem was not the landing (we stood it up and my legs didn't reach the ground), I had to tell him that we could not go on to AFF as he would overgross the solo gear.
Chris

[jfields 0]

Steve & Jessica,
I'm not sure where you got the impression that I am in favor of just letting people die off. I don't think I said that anywhere. My comment about the gene pool was general, and I think true. Perhaps we are breeding some negative traits back in through our actions.
It seems that you feel I have a particular axe to grind with anti-depressents or that I have singled out depression as something not worthy of treatment. Not true. My concern is with the growing tendency to medically treat symptoms rather than causes and the easy availability of powerful drugs that can alter brain chemistry.
In your example of people that have put lots of money into expensive educations only to find them too stressful, I'm not sure what to do for them. Perhaps there is a job where they could take advantage of the education in a lateral shift to a different position. For example, instead of being an ER surgeon, someone could become a medical consultant or work in a different practice with less stress. I'm not saying they should chuck their med school education and pump gas. If their current job is a source of stress beyond their ability to deal with, then maybe it isn't for them. Obviously that is a personal issue, but the decision to become chemically dependent isn't one that should be taken lightly.
In reference to the comment about antibiotics in beef, well.... yes I eat beef. Do I wish they had less antibiotics? Also yes. We are probably in agreement on the fact that antibiotics get abused even more in livestock.
Jessica, I'm sorry if you feel that attitudes like mine kept you away from drugs you needed for too long. I don't know your particular case, and it is not my business to pry. I'm glad you got the medication you needed. Really, I am.
My objections are with the people that either don't need medications getting them or people who may possibly benefit getting them as a first resort rather than after serious and thorough consideration. I doubt you took antidepressents without good reason, but many people are not like you.
Getting more general and philosophical...
While I am not a doctor, I see the human body as something that has amazing self-regulating systems. We can heal from incredible injuries and fend off tremendous amounts of bodily attacks (bacteria, viruses, etc.) without conscious effort. Our brains have evolved into powerful tools with numerous checks and balances.
With the world's most complex systems (human bodies) running so well, I have an objection to people altering the basic functioning of their bodies without good reason. Yes, reasons certainly exist, but I am against the casual and sometimes reckless modifications that get made to otherwise healthy people.
Going back to the bacterial example, misuse and overuse of drugs don't just harm an individual. They harm our entire society. If you think of this as an arms race or war happening at a microscopic level, we keep upping the ante against the bacteria. Instead of bacteria evolving at their normal rate, our actions are accelerating their reactions. An antibiotic that kills 90% of some bacteria strain really helps encourage the growth and propogation of the resistant 10%. Eventually, some bacteria are completely immune to a particular medication. If we didn't go to meds so quickly and so often, we wouldn't hasten the transition to resistant strains as much. As it is now, we struggle to keep our most powerful antibiotics ahead of the curve of the bacteria.
I see analogies between the bacteria evolving in reaction to medicine and human beings reacting toward medicine. Through our increasing use of drugs, are we gradually changing our entire genetic path? Perhaps, and I don't think we should do so lightly. Also, are we changing our social nature to be encouraging of chemical dependency? I'm not talking about accepting, but the step over to encouraging. With the proliferation of advertising and ease of access, will prescription drugs grow in "recreational" use? Then what happens when someone really needs them and they don't work?
I think I'm up to about $.06 or $.08, but I have a big budget for conversation. Justin

[Hooknswoop 19]

I've taken some BIG passengers on tandems using the eclispe tandem system. I weigh 160lbs. The gear weighs about 45 lbs, so that leaves about 320 lbs of student.
Hook

[jfields 0]

Hook,
Would you actually want to take a tandem that was double your weight? Ouch! Justin