Lindsey 0 #51 May 23, 2002 Justin, I think everyone understands very well the threat posed by the over use of antibiotics, and today they are not prescribed by doctors to the extent that they were 5 years ago, for that reason. In terms of the use of medications in general, I just think you're making some very strong statements about people's medical needs, when you have very little actual knowledge in the field. It's nice to get all idealistic about such issues, but if you live where the rubber meets the road and come to understand people in their day-to-day worlds who take all of these medications, I would hope that you would adopt some compassion. Maybe you do have compassion and just made some statements that people jumped on.... I don't know. They were just some relatively bold statements.....saying that there should be a stigma attached to taking medications is a statement that horribly gets under the skin of those who have dealt with their own or other people's fears of taking medications that they really need. No....there should be no stigma attached to taking medications. While some of what you say has merit in my mind, you just go too far for someone with such clearly limited knowledge and experience. you can live in happiness too, like the oompa loompa dooba de do.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #52 May 23, 2002 Yeah, all you would see from the ground would be the tandem student and a set of hands and feet sticking out from Hook behind him - I guess it would be a total ecllipse of a Hook? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #53 May 23, 2002 QuoteSome people work 80-hour weeks in jobs they hate, live with people they don't love,then wonder why they have high blood pressure. Amen to that. If you don't like what ya got, cut it away No job, item or person is worth sacrificing ones happiness for. If the meds help them get out of the rut and discover and act upon this simple truth, I'm all for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #54 May 23, 2002 whoa...... you people need to take a chill pill RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #55 May 23, 2002 wait, wait.....I think I have one of those here somewhere.....you can live in happiness too, like the oompa loompa dooba de do.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #56 May 23, 2002 **whoa...... you people need to take a chill pill**i think we're trying to get people off of pills right now! J/K Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #57 May 23, 2002 Grumpy Smurf and jfields,Most people I know endure a lot for the well being of their family. I mean I'd go through hell and back to help my kids. There's no way I'm going to put my own self happiness or self gratification ahead of them. That to me is what having a family is all about. And it's not always easy to jump into another career field just because you are tired of your present job. Sure it can be done, but this often takes a lot of time and planning. If you go back to school your family is going to suffer because you made this change. I put my family first, and that's how I see it. If that means enduring a shit job for a period of time until I can work into something better that's what I'll do. I worked in the woods for ten years falling timber. Many of my friends were killed and crippled for life. In the winter you were often up to your waist in snow. I'll tell you that after a while I hated it. It would have been nice to do something else, but where I lived there weren't many jobs that paid well, if you didn't have an education. But it wasn't all bad. I was able to make enough money to put myself through school, buy some land, and build a log house. And work my way into another career field. It also took a lot of time and planning. I ended up in teaching and I didn't really like this profession much better, but it was a whole lot safer than falling timber. I was finally able to go back to school and get a master's in school counseling. So yes it is possible to change careers but this often takes a lot of time and enduring a lot of bull shit in the process. If you think in idealistic terms though it probably seems easy to change from career to career until you find the one that's just right for you. Things are tougher when you have a family and I always put their welfare first. I would be nice to do it over again. I wouldn't have made many of the choices I made. It would have also be nice to have someone guiding you in the right direction in life. I also didn't have much of that. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #58 May 23, 2002 Steve,I'll answer your post now, because it will be more difficult to go back and deal with Lindsey's. I'll get hers later. My daughter is a month old. There isn't anything I wouldn't do for her. I understand your position on that. Her happiness is far more important than mine. Like you, I'd do a shit job for as long as it took to provide for her. BUT, (and you knew a "but" was coming), I would work myself out of that situation as quickly as possible. I am certainly not saying it is easy. It isn't, nor do I think it is always the answer. My happiness and mental well-being have a direct effect on my family. The more stable and emotionally centered I am, the energy I have to devote outward to them.You said that it would have been nice to have someone guiding you in the right direction in life. Amen to that! Though you didn't have it, from what you've said, you are providing it now. Congrats on giving to your community. I see the lack of guidence you endured as a cultural failing. If family and community bonds were stronger, fewer people would have the wasted/misdirected/unhappy years in their lives. With stronger familial support groups and better personal coping skills, I also believe fewer people would need many medications. I think we actually agree on this particular part of our discussion more than we disagree. Likewise, we both made choices we would do differently if we could go back and try it again. Maybe a sterner hand would have guided us better, or some wise advice when we needed it. All we can do is look to be that person for our families and friends.Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #59 May 23, 2002 To me it sounds like what made/makes you happy is the well being of your family. You gambled changing careers and made it work, improving the well being of your family, thus, I think, making yourself happier in return. Aye, it's not easy to do, but anything worth having is never easy to acquire.It's saddening to see people later in thier lives and careers at a loss on how to change thier lives and make themselves happy again - often only because they are afraid to fail. Often times they know what will make them happier, but need something to help them take the first step - sometimes it is conselling, sometimes medication, sometimes just a good friend - my feeling is - so long as you are alive, your life can always get better - sieze the moment and take the chance. As jfields drug discussion - I do feel medication is acceptable to help people to start down the path to finding happiness, I believe that is between them and thier doctor, and blanket statements about reasonable use is something few of us are qualified to make.My comments were directed about those who do not require medication and do, deep down inside, know what they need to do to make thier lives better. They will, hopefully, find that thier fear of failure is far worse than the actual failure itself. BTW - My friends find me a rather frustrating consellor, since the discussion about thier problem comes down to a "Well, you told me what you feel will make you happy, what is preventing you from doing it?" They then come back with a list of reasons that I then ask, "Well how can you overcome this?" - when in fact, I know the whole time they just want to vent If I offended anyone with my statement, my sincerest appologies.Chill pill, yeah it's called beer and 1 more day and I get to try to OD on some Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #60 May 23, 2002 Jfields and GrumpySmurf,Come to Montana and we'll make some jumps. I think we all got way to serious on this discussion. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #61 May 23, 2002 When you are a full time instructor, want you want isn't one of your two options, jump or quit. Did I like taking bug passengers? No. Did I have a choice? Not really. I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem. I would always picture "Master Blaster" from Mad Max and laugh.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #62 May 23, 2002 DEAL! I need some more vacation time.They had this special on PBS called 'Frontier House' where they tossed a bunch of families into the lives of homesteaders in 1883 in Montana - absolutely beautiful country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #63 May 23, 2002 Morning, Justin.I'm again jumping into the fray, but I will do my best to bring clarification to the situation rather than flame or opine (not that anyone has, but I may get a tad sharp, and I want people reading to understand the genesis of my thoughts here.)There is a horrible stigma attached to mental illness, chronic or situational. The original post by Milo is a perfect example: Quote but he finally admitted he's on an antidepressant like Prozac (Effexor?)Look at that sentence. While I know Milo was just writing out his thoughts, the use of the word "admitted" says it all. Whether his employee said "I admit it, I use Effexor/Prozac", or that was Milo's word, it exactly demonstrates the issues someone who needs meds faces. I know Milo was just stating his mind, and asking a very important question, but the phrasing of it is all too common..."he admitted"...Admit? As in a crime? Admit, as in yes, I killed someone? Or I admit, I stole something? What the hell is that? Do you ever hear someone say "I admit it, I'm taking penicillin?" Or "Well yes, I confess, I am taking Vicodin because my nose hurts"? No, there is no admitting to that need. But put into the context of mental illness, admitting is often used. Admitting to something indicates guilt. Why should there be guilt connected to someone needing meds, be them antibiotics or psychotropics? The mindset which pervades our society is yes, you should have guilt because we don't think something is wrong - something we can't necessarily see under a microscope, or in an x-ray; and if we agree that something is wrong, it's nothing that a little willpower can't resolve.But something is wrong. And sometimes desperately wrong. I resisted taking the medication for just that reason. I recall reasoning it out that because my family is anti-drug, that I would be ostracized for taking them. I would be shunned from the people in my workplace. I would be even more isolated than I was before, during my marriage. And yes, there was a part of me that thought I should just freaking get over it. I mean, it's just willpower, right? It's just determination, right? It's just faith, right? And the more I thought I should just get over it, because of the self's thought as well as society's thought, the pressure was huge to not take it. Then, the result of that was a compounding of the original issues with added stress that I should just get over it, handle it, talk it through with my friends, and just deal with it. I went into counseling, and for several months, I told my therapist I was not taking the drugs, that good old fashioned "talk" would work. It didn't work. I was so very close to suicide. I told my brother that I so low, I was looking up to see the bottom. I joked about it because that's one of my ways of dealing with the unknown. It wasn't until I was laying in bed literally thinking about how many tylenol pm's it would take to stop this hurting, this incessant thought pattern of "I'm no good, I can't do anything, I'm fat, ugly, I deserved nothing more than what I got, I can't function, I can't -I'm not - I'm this, that and the other thing - " and I just couldn't manage it day to day. Couldn't hold on. And worse, didn't want to hold on. I started the meds because I was willing to give myself one last chance to make it to a place I could survive - not live, not be happy, just survive. After some time tweaking the dosage, and watching for the side effects, my psychiatrist, my therapist, and I were able to get the world back right-side up. Did the meds make me happy? No. Did the meds make me "whole" no (I am still not sure what "whole" is). Did they perform a miracle after taking one pill - everything was good again, and I was perfect and capable of dealing with things? No.What they did do was stop the downward slide which would have ended in death and a ceasing of the torment I was in. Could I have done that by myself? Could I have just freaking gotten over it? No. I tried. I wish I could have, because of people's condemnation of anyone who needs and uses meds (self and extraneous). But I wasn't able to. So condemn me if you will, chastize me for being weakwilled and unable to work out of it. Ostracize me because I was close to killing myself but chose to give it one more try. Pretend you understand what it's like to be that caught in a medical condition that all you want is for it to stop...and that most people just don't understand.Your commentary about breeding negative genes into the pool is atrocious. What if your daughter had an illness (God forbid) which was genetic. Would you not do everything you could to sustain her? Provide for her? Help her any way you could? Of course you would. Why not allow me the same for myself? Your statement indicates something which I will not put into words...As to people using an SSRI (selective seratonin uptake inhibitor) to "feel good" or to "pop a pill", they have no idea how they work. I am not exactly sure of how they work, or I'd explain them to you. But it takes several weeks to see the effects, and it is not an immediate result. Did I get off them as soon as I could? Yes. Would I do the same with penicillin? Yes.Would I resist the same way if I were in the position I was before? I don't know. I would hope not, but societal pressure can be a gigantic factor. Justin, I am not flaming you. I am relating my story because you don't understand what it's like. You can't. But yet, you judge. You make statements like "freaking get over it", and it's not that easy. If it were, I'd've done it. I never wanted to die. I just wanted it to stop. And with meds, and counseling, it has mostly. Go ahead, everyone. Ostracize me for this. Shun me for this. It's not easy laying my heart out like this, but I did it so people can understand that they don't know - can't know - and yet behave as if they do. So ban me (yes, I am defensive -this is not an easy thing to put out here), but if you are ever there, I will be the first to reach my hand to you, and say "I understand. I've been there, and I know my fight, and I know what you're facing".Ciels and Pinks-MicheleLife is what you make it; always was, always will be.~Grandma Moses~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #64 May 23, 2002 Ah, I say, just throw the fat bastard out of the plane. He'll either land smooth or bounce.If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChromeBoy 0 #65 May 23, 2002 QuoteAh, I say, just throw the fat bastard out of the plane. He'll either land smooth or bounce.Fat Bastard. You didn't tell us it was Fat Bastard. He is a celebrity. Keep Mini Me away from him though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #66 May 23, 2002 **I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem.**Hook:you lying dog, you almost killed me on my very first skydive, remember how you tried to unhook me in freefall? J/K Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #67 May 23, 2002 "Git in my belly!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #68 May 23, 2002 Afternoon, Michele.Thanks for continuing the discussion flame-free. I appreciate it, and will try to reply in kind.Not that I have any right to "pass judgement" on your situation in any way, but even if I did, I would still have no objection with what you did. I feel like the perception is that I feel all mental illness should be untreated or seen as a failure of the individual. That is not the case.I explained a little bit about my role in helping a family member with a very clear case of bipolar. I don't think she is a bad person. I don't think she could "just suck up and deal" or "freakin' get over it". However, she does need to improve the coping skills she applies to her situation. Her medical professionals said the same thing. I've tried working with on that, with some success. She is on much less medication than she once was.The first issue I have with our society's use of medications is when they are haphazardly prescribed and/or taken. From your description, you did absolutely nothing of the sort. You waited much longer than most people in your shoes probably would. You had a medical need that you solved. Once the problem had been fully addressed, due to various factors, you got off the medication. That is as it should be. Drugs are a tool to be used carefully.Contrast your agonizing over whether to take medications with people that do so right away, without any consideration about the consequences. I find the "when in doubt, pop a pill" mentality to be a growing cultural problem. To clarify once again, I don't believe that applies to you. It is about the people who see prescription drugs almost recreationally. I never specified SSRI's when talking about people taking drugs on a whim. I never mentioned anything by name, except in the context of certain drugs being marketed on television to the public. I am not knowledgeable about SSRI's, nor did I ever claim to be. My problem is with the mentality itself, seeing those types of powerful medications as harmless or insignificant.I think you misunderstood my comment on genes. I do care for my daughter and would do everything within my power to help her. That said, she is in fact very likely to have at least one illness. Both my wife and I suffer from allergies. I have gross toe fungus (sorry for the TMI) and my wife has exercise induced asthma. There are other things (diabetes, bipolar, cancer) in our families as well. Chances are she will get at least some of these. Do I think my wife and I are bad people for possibly passing these genes on to our daughter. Nope.But does our culture lend itself toward increasing some of these characteristics in the gene pool where other cultures don't? I think so. Some of the things we are doing now will probably make diseases themselves more potent in the future. That goes to the antibiotic-resistant bacteria discussion. With the combination of weaking our immune systems and strengthening the bacteria strains, I believe we are setting ourselves up for big problems later on. Even if you remove the physical aspects completely, are we socially selecting a path of chemical dependence? Once again, maybe. It troubles me. Sit down and watch a night of network television. How many ads to you see for prescription drugs? Why are they trying to advertise to the masses? Is the message that casually taking this or that brand drug is normal and the doctor is merely a formality? They come across saying "Our drug is great! You should take some. Just get a doctor to write you that pesky prescription. Oh, by the way, FREE SAMPLES!" I dislike the message, and its effect on people. Call the whole big scenario negative social evolution. I feel it is a step backwards. Note that this in particular has nothing whatsover to do with the relationship between doctor and patient. It is not sound medical advice. It is not based on a valid medical need. It is the establishment of some relationship between phamaceutical manufacturer and potential buyer. Health is almost irrelevent. It is marketing to increase sales, regardless of actual need. The people that fall prey to such tactics when they don't really need something are the ones who should "just freakin' get over it". Chances are they might not really have the problem, or not to the degree where they should begin a nearly perpetual psychological reliance on medication.That isn't even going into perks given to doctors for prescribing certain drugs. That is a whole separate issue.I know people that lactaid without any basis for knowing they are lactose intolerant. They just guess, then follow through for years. There is nicotine water so people can get their fix without lighting up in a movie theater or restaurant. What's up with that? Talk about fostering chemical dependence.Boiled down, I'd have to say my objections are:1. Use of prescriptions by people that don't need them.2. Marketing of drugs as an expected part of everyday life.3. Overuse of drugs creating potential hazards for later.4. Medications used in place of positive lifestyle changes.5. Cultural expectations leading toward increased drug use.Nowhere in there do I say that particular illnesses shouldn't be treated, or that anyone needing medication shouldn't get it. I do think we need to be more discerning and cautious about the whole range of issues.Did this clear anything up?Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #69 May 23, 2002 Michelle,I admire your courage. I think you're right, unless you've been there it's really hard to understand or judge someone else. I'm glad you survived the ordeal you went through. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #70 May 23, 2002 Is it just me or is everyone getting two posts coming in at once? One group of people is talking about tandem jumping and another is talking about anti-depressant drugs. Maybe my computer is screwed up. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #71 May 23, 2002 Steve,The original discussion was about someone on Prozac doing a tandem. The conversation has completely diverged into tandems and drugs (not just anti-depressents), with no remaining connection between the two. Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gale 0 #72 May 23, 2002 I don't know you but I wish I did. You are brave and strong. Reading your post touched me. You did what it took to save your life, and isn't that what skydivers do all the time? I wouldn't condem you, I would suggest that your story may be inspirational to people who are in the same circumstance. Stay well.Just a point of reference: SSRI increase the seritonin in your brain, but this only works if you are in fact depressed. If a non-depressed person took them they might experience some side-effects but no "high" in any way. Even doctors are not clear exactly how or why these drugs work. Interestingly, (ha) often people are diagnosed after boing put on medication "oh, you responded to an SSRI - you must have been depressed, respond to lithium - and you must be bipolar"There is so much that is unknown about the brain and how it works that this is the best we can do right now, even though our best is pathetic.Also, and this is important, if you have a serious depression and you wait to get treatment it can make it VERY difficult to treat and you're more succeptable for relapse. Not to mention you will have to be on the drugs longer. If this stigma were removed maybe fewer people would be in this catagory. GaleIsn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #73 May 24, 2002 Gale,I agree with your post. What we know about the brain is very little. I guess with recent advances in technology this is changing rapidly though. Hopefully in the future we'll have greater insight. In terms of therapy, there are also a wide variety of ideas on this. I had one of my professors say that a person with a doctorate in psychology might be thought of as a type of "witch" doctor, because we know very little about what works best in this field. I believe that the right type of therapy can be very beneficial in the right situation, but there are also a lot of therapists out there who are really ineffective and even harmful. Hopefully this is another science that will improve in the future. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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GrumpySmurf 0 #53 May 23, 2002 QuoteSome people work 80-hour weeks in jobs they hate, live with people they don't love,then wonder why they have high blood pressure. Amen to that. If you don't like what ya got, cut it away No job, item or person is worth sacrificing ones happiness for. If the meds help them get out of the rut and discover and act upon this simple truth, I'm all for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #54 May 23, 2002 whoa...... you people need to take a chill pill RemsterMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #55 May 23, 2002 wait, wait.....I think I have one of those here somewhere.....you can live in happiness too, like the oompa loompa dooba de do.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #56 May 23, 2002 **whoa...... you people need to take a chill pill**i think we're trying to get people off of pills right now! J/K Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #57 May 23, 2002 Grumpy Smurf and jfields,Most people I know endure a lot for the well being of their family. I mean I'd go through hell and back to help my kids. There's no way I'm going to put my own self happiness or self gratification ahead of them. That to me is what having a family is all about. And it's not always easy to jump into another career field just because you are tired of your present job. Sure it can be done, but this often takes a lot of time and planning. If you go back to school your family is going to suffer because you made this change. I put my family first, and that's how I see it. If that means enduring a shit job for a period of time until I can work into something better that's what I'll do. I worked in the woods for ten years falling timber. Many of my friends were killed and crippled for life. In the winter you were often up to your waist in snow. I'll tell you that after a while I hated it. It would have been nice to do something else, but where I lived there weren't many jobs that paid well, if you didn't have an education. But it wasn't all bad. I was able to make enough money to put myself through school, buy some land, and build a log house. And work my way into another career field. It also took a lot of time and planning. I ended up in teaching and I didn't really like this profession much better, but it was a whole lot safer than falling timber. I was finally able to go back to school and get a master's in school counseling. So yes it is possible to change careers but this often takes a lot of time and enduring a lot of bull shit in the process. If you think in idealistic terms though it probably seems easy to change from career to career until you find the one that's just right for you. Things are tougher when you have a family and I always put their welfare first. I would be nice to do it over again. I wouldn't have made many of the choices I made. It would have also be nice to have someone guiding you in the right direction in life. I also didn't have much of that. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #58 May 23, 2002 Steve,I'll answer your post now, because it will be more difficult to go back and deal with Lindsey's. I'll get hers later. My daughter is a month old. There isn't anything I wouldn't do for her. I understand your position on that. Her happiness is far more important than mine. Like you, I'd do a shit job for as long as it took to provide for her. BUT, (and you knew a "but" was coming), I would work myself out of that situation as quickly as possible. I am certainly not saying it is easy. It isn't, nor do I think it is always the answer. My happiness and mental well-being have a direct effect on my family. The more stable and emotionally centered I am, the energy I have to devote outward to them.You said that it would have been nice to have someone guiding you in the right direction in life. Amen to that! Though you didn't have it, from what you've said, you are providing it now. Congrats on giving to your community. I see the lack of guidence you endured as a cultural failing. If family and community bonds were stronger, fewer people would have the wasted/misdirected/unhappy years in their lives. With stronger familial support groups and better personal coping skills, I also believe fewer people would need many medications. I think we actually agree on this particular part of our discussion more than we disagree. Likewise, we both made choices we would do differently if we could go back and try it again. Maybe a sterner hand would have guided us better, or some wise advice when we needed it. All we can do is look to be that person for our families and friends.Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #59 May 23, 2002 To me it sounds like what made/makes you happy is the well being of your family. You gambled changing careers and made it work, improving the well being of your family, thus, I think, making yourself happier in return. Aye, it's not easy to do, but anything worth having is never easy to acquire.It's saddening to see people later in thier lives and careers at a loss on how to change thier lives and make themselves happy again - often only because they are afraid to fail. Often times they know what will make them happier, but need something to help them take the first step - sometimes it is conselling, sometimes medication, sometimes just a good friend - my feeling is - so long as you are alive, your life can always get better - sieze the moment and take the chance. As jfields drug discussion - I do feel medication is acceptable to help people to start down the path to finding happiness, I believe that is between them and thier doctor, and blanket statements about reasonable use is something few of us are qualified to make.My comments were directed about those who do not require medication and do, deep down inside, know what they need to do to make thier lives better. They will, hopefully, find that thier fear of failure is far worse than the actual failure itself. BTW - My friends find me a rather frustrating consellor, since the discussion about thier problem comes down to a "Well, you told me what you feel will make you happy, what is preventing you from doing it?" They then come back with a list of reasons that I then ask, "Well how can you overcome this?" - when in fact, I know the whole time they just want to vent If I offended anyone with my statement, my sincerest appologies.Chill pill, yeah it's called beer and 1 more day and I get to try to OD on some Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #60 May 23, 2002 Jfields and GrumpySmurf,Come to Montana and we'll make some jumps. I think we all got way to serious on this discussion. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #61 May 23, 2002 When you are a full time instructor, want you want isn't one of your two options, jump or quit. Did I like taking bug passengers? No. Did I have a choice? Not really. I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem. I would always picture "Master Blaster" from Mad Max and laugh.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #62 May 23, 2002 DEAL! I need some more vacation time.They had this special on PBS called 'Frontier House' where they tossed a bunch of families into the lives of homesteaders in 1883 in Montana - absolutely beautiful country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #63 May 23, 2002 Morning, Justin.I'm again jumping into the fray, but I will do my best to bring clarification to the situation rather than flame or opine (not that anyone has, but I may get a tad sharp, and I want people reading to understand the genesis of my thoughts here.)There is a horrible stigma attached to mental illness, chronic or situational. The original post by Milo is a perfect example: Quote but he finally admitted he's on an antidepressant like Prozac (Effexor?)Look at that sentence. While I know Milo was just writing out his thoughts, the use of the word "admitted" says it all. Whether his employee said "I admit it, I use Effexor/Prozac", or that was Milo's word, it exactly demonstrates the issues someone who needs meds faces. I know Milo was just stating his mind, and asking a very important question, but the phrasing of it is all too common..."he admitted"...Admit? As in a crime? Admit, as in yes, I killed someone? Or I admit, I stole something? What the hell is that? Do you ever hear someone say "I admit it, I'm taking penicillin?" Or "Well yes, I confess, I am taking Vicodin because my nose hurts"? No, there is no admitting to that need. But put into the context of mental illness, admitting is often used. Admitting to something indicates guilt. Why should there be guilt connected to someone needing meds, be them antibiotics or psychotropics? The mindset which pervades our society is yes, you should have guilt because we don't think something is wrong - something we can't necessarily see under a microscope, or in an x-ray; and if we agree that something is wrong, it's nothing that a little willpower can't resolve.But something is wrong. And sometimes desperately wrong. I resisted taking the medication for just that reason. I recall reasoning it out that because my family is anti-drug, that I would be ostracized for taking them. I would be shunned from the people in my workplace. I would be even more isolated than I was before, during my marriage. And yes, there was a part of me that thought I should just freaking get over it. I mean, it's just willpower, right? It's just determination, right? It's just faith, right? And the more I thought I should just get over it, because of the self's thought as well as society's thought, the pressure was huge to not take it. Then, the result of that was a compounding of the original issues with added stress that I should just get over it, handle it, talk it through with my friends, and just deal with it. I went into counseling, and for several months, I told my therapist I was not taking the drugs, that good old fashioned "talk" would work. It didn't work. I was so very close to suicide. I told my brother that I so low, I was looking up to see the bottom. I joked about it because that's one of my ways of dealing with the unknown. It wasn't until I was laying in bed literally thinking about how many tylenol pm's it would take to stop this hurting, this incessant thought pattern of "I'm no good, I can't do anything, I'm fat, ugly, I deserved nothing more than what I got, I can't function, I can't -I'm not - I'm this, that and the other thing - " and I just couldn't manage it day to day. Couldn't hold on. And worse, didn't want to hold on. I started the meds because I was willing to give myself one last chance to make it to a place I could survive - not live, not be happy, just survive. After some time tweaking the dosage, and watching for the side effects, my psychiatrist, my therapist, and I were able to get the world back right-side up. Did the meds make me happy? No. Did the meds make me "whole" no (I am still not sure what "whole" is). Did they perform a miracle after taking one pill - everything was good again, and I was perfect and capable of dealing with things? No.What they did do was stop the downward slide which would have ended in death and a ceasing of the torment I was in. Could I have done that by myself? Could I have just freaking gotten over it? No. I tried. I wish I could have, because of people's condemnation of anyone who needs and uses meds (self and extraneous). But I wasn't able to. So condemn me if you will, chastize me for being weakwilled and unable to work out of it. Ostracize me because I was close to killing myself but chose to give it one more try. Pretend you understand what it's like to be that caught in a medical condition that all you want is for it to stop...and that most people just don't understand.Your commentary about breeding negative genes into the pool is atrocious. What if your daughter had an illness (God forbid) which was genetic. Would you not do everything you could to sustain her? Provide for her? Help her any way you could? Of course you would. Why not allow me the same for myself? Your statement indicates something which I will not put into words...As to people using an SSRI (selective seratonin uptake inhibitor) to "feel good" or to "pop a pill", they have no idea how they work. I am not exactly sure of how they work, or I'd explain them to you. But it takes several weeks to see the effects, and it is not an immediate result. Did I get off them as soon as I could? Yes. Would I do the same with penicillin? Yes.Would I resist the same way if I were in the position I was before? I don't know. I would hope not, but societal pressure can be a gigantic factor. Justin, I am not flaming you. I am relating my story because you don't understand what it's like. You can't. But yet, you judge. You make statements like "freaking get over it", and it's not that easy. If it were, I'd've done it. I never wanted to die. I just wanted it to stop. And with meds, and counseling, it has mostly. Go ahead, everyone. Ostracize me for this. Shun me for this. It's not easy laying my heart out like this, but I did it so people can understand that they don't know - can't know - and yet behave as if they do. So ban me (yes, I am defensive -this is not an easy thing to put out here), but if you are ever there, I will be the first to reach my hand to you, and say "I understand. I've been there, and I know my fight, and I know what you're facing".Ciels and Pinks-MicheleLife is what you make it; always was, always will be.~Grandma Moses~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #64 May 23, 2002 Ah, I say, just throw the fat bastard out of the plane. He'll either land smooth or bounce.If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChromeBoy 0 #65 May 23, 2002 QuoteAh, I say, just throw the fat bastard out of the plane. He'll either land smooth or bounce.Fat Bastard. You didn't tell us it was Fat Bastard. He is a celebrity. Keep Mini Me away from him though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #66 May 23, 2002 **I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem.**Hook:you lying dog, you almost killed me on my very first skydive, remember how you tried to unhook me in freefall? J/K Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #67 May 23, 2002 "Git in my belly!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #68 May 23, 2002 Afternoon, Michele.Thanks for continuing the discussion flame-free. I appreciate it, and will try to reply in kind.Not that I have any right to "pass judgement" on your situation in any way, but even if I did, I would still have no objection with what you did. I feel like the perception is that I feel all mental illness should be untreated or seen as a failure of the individual. That is not the case.I explained a little bit about my role in helping a family member with a very clear case of bipolar. I don't think she is a bad person. I don't think she could "just suck up and deal" or "freakin' get over it". However, she does need to improve the coping skills she applies to her situation. Her medical professionals said the same thing. I've tried working with on that, with some success. She is on much less medication than she once was.The first issue I have with our society's use of medications is when they are haphazardly prescribed and/or taken. From your description, you did absolutely nothing of the sort. You waited much longer than most people in your shoes probably would. You had a medical need that you solved. Once the problem had been fully addressed, due to various factors, you got off the medication. That is as it should be. Drugs are a tool to be used carefully.Contrast your agonizing over whether to take medications with people that do so right away, without any consideration about the consequences. I find the "when in doubt, pop a pill" mentality to be a growing cultural problem. To clarify once again, I don't believe that applies to you. It is about the people who see prescription drugs almost recreationally. I never specified SSRI's when talking about people taking drugs on a whim. I never mentioned anything by name, except in the context of certain drugs being marketed on television to the public. I am not knowledgeable about SSRI's, nor did I ever claim to be. My problem is with the mentality itself, seeing those types of powerful medications as harmless or insignificant.I think you misunderstood my comment on genes. I do care for my daughter and would do everything within my power to help her. That said, she is in fact very likely to have at least one illness. Both my wife and I suffer from allergies. I have gross toe fungus (sorry for the TMI) and my wife has exercise induced asthma. There are other things (diabetes, bipolar, cancer) in our families as well. Chances are she will get at least some of these. Do I think my wife and I are bad people for possibly passing these genes on to our daughter. Nope.But does our culture lend itself toward increasing some of these characteristics in the gene pool where other cultures don't? I think so. Some of the things we are doing now will probably make diseases themselves more potent in the future. That goes to the antibiotic-resistant bacteria discussion. With the combination of weaking our immune systems and strengthening the bacteria strains, I believe we are setting ourselves up for big problems later on. Even if you remove the physical aspects completely, are we socially selecting a path of chemical dependence? Once again, maybe. It troubles me. Sit down and watch a night of network television. How many ads to you see for prescription drugs? Why are they trying to advertise to the masses? Is the message that casually taking this or that brand drug is normal and the doctor is merely a formality? They come across saying "Our drug is great! You should take some. Just get a doctor to write you that pesky prescription. Oh, by the way, FREE SAMPLES!" I dislike the message, and its effect on people. Call the whole big scenario negative social evolution. I feel it is a step backwards. Note that this in particular has nothing whatsover to do with the relationship between doctor and patient. It is not sound medical advice. It is not based on a valid medical need. It is the establishment of some relationship between phamaceutical manufacturer and potential buyer. Health is almost irrelevent. It is marketing to increase sales, regardless of actual need. The people that fall prey to such tactics when they don't really need something are the ones who should "just freakin' get over it". Chances are they might not really have the problem, or not to the degree where they should begin a nearly perpetual psychological reliance on medication.That isn't even going into perks given to doctors for prescribing certain drugs. That is a whole separate issue.I know people that lactaid without any basis for knowing they are lactose intolerant. They just guess, then follow through for years. There is nicotine water so people can get their fix without lighting up in a movie theater or restaurant. What's up with that? Talk about fostering chemical dependence.Boiled down, I'd have to say my objections are:1. Use of prescriptions by people that don't need them.2. Marketing of drugs as an expected part of everyday life.3. Overuse of drugs creating potential hazards for later.4. Medications used in place of positive lifestyle changes.5. Cultural expectations leading toward increased drug use.Nowhere in there do I say that particular illnesses shouldn't be treated, or that anyone needing medication shouldn't get it. I do think we need to be more discerning and cautious about the whole range of issues.Did this clear anything up?Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #69 May 23, 2002 Michelle,I admire your courage. I think you're right, unless you've been there it's really hard to understand or judge someone else. I'm glad you survived the ordeal you went through. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #70 May 23, 2002 Is it just me or is everyone getting two posts coming in at once? One group of people is talking about tandem jumping and another is talking about anti-depressant drugs. Maybe my computer is screwed up. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #71 May 23, 2002 Steve,The original discussion was about someone on Prozac doing a tandem. The conversation has completely diverged into tandems and drugs (not just anti-depressents), with no remaining connection between the two. Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gale 0 #72 May 23, 2002 I don't know you but I wish I did. You are brave and strong. Reading your post touched me. You did what it took to save your life, and isn't that what skydivers do all the time? I wouldn't condem you, I would suggest that your story may be inspirational to people who are in the same circumstance. Stay well.Just a point of reference: SSRI increase the seritonin in your brain, but this only works if you are in fact depressed. If a non-depressed person took them they might experience some side-effects but no "high" in any way. Even doctors are not clear exactly how or why these drugs work. Interestingly, (ha) often people are diagnosed after boing put on medication "oh, you responded to an SSRI - you must have been depressed, respond to lithium - and you must be bipolar"There is so much that is unknown about the brain and how it works that this is the best we can do right now, even though our best is pathetic.Also, and this is important, if you have a serious depression and you wait to get treatment it can make it VERY difficult to treat and you're more succeptable for relapse. Not to mention you will have to be on the drugs longer. If this stigma were removed maybe fewer people would be in this catagory. GaleIsn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #73 May 24, 2002 Gale,I agree with your post. What we know about the brain is very little. I guess with recent advances in technology this is changing rapidly though. Hopefully in the future we'll have greater insight. In terms of therapy, there are also a wide variety of ideas on this. I had one of my professors say that a person with a doctorate in psychology might be thought of as a type of "witch" doctor, because we know very little about what works best in this field. I believe that the right type of therapy can be very beneficial in the right situation, but there are also a lot of therapists out there who are really ineffective and even harmful. Hopefully this is another science that will improve in the future. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
steve1 5 #60 May 23, 2002 Jfields and GrumpySmurf,Come to Montana and we'll make some jumps. I think we all got way to serious on this discussion. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #61 May 23, 2002 When you are a full time instructor, want you want isn't one of your two options, jump or quit. Did I like taking bug passengers? No. Did I have a choice? Not really. I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem. I would always picture "Master Blaster" from Mad Max and laugh.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #62 May 23, 2002 DEAL! I need some more vacation time.They had this special on PBS called 'Frontier House' where they tossed a bunch of families into the lives of homesteaders in 1883 in Montana - absolutely beautiful country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #63 May 23, 2002 Morning, Justin.I'm again jumping into the fray, but I will do my best to bring clarification to the situation rather than flame or opine (not that anyone has, but I may get a tad sharp, and I want people reading to understand the genesis of my thoughts here.)There is a horrible stigma attached to mental illness, chronic or situational. The original post by Milo is a perfect example: Quote but he finally admitted he's on an antidepressant like Prozac (Effexor?)Look at that sentence. While I know Milo was just writing out his thoughts, the use of the word "admitted" says it all. Whether his employee said "I admit it, I use Effexor/Prozac", or that was Milo's word, it exactly demonstrates the issues someone who needs meds faces. I know Milo was just stating his mind, and asking a very important question, but the phrasing of it is all too common..."he admitted"...Admit? As in a crime? Admit, as in yes, I killed someone? Or I admit, I stole something? What the hell is that? Do you ever hear someone say "I admit it, I'm taking penicillin?" Or "Well yes, I confess, I am taking Vicodin because my nose hurts"? No, there is no admitting to that need. But put into the context of mental illness, admitting is often used. Admitting to something indicates guilt. Why should there be guilt connected to someone needing meds, be them antibiotics or psychotropics? The mindset which pervades our society is yes, you should have guilt because we don't think something is wrong - something we can't necessarily see under a microscope, or in an x-ray; and if we agree that something is wrong, it's nothing that a little willpower can't resolve.But something is wrong. And sometimes desperately wrong. I resisted taking the medication for just that reason. I recall reasoning it out that because my family is anti-drug, that I would be ostracized for taking them. I would be shunned from the people in my workplace. I would be even more isolated than I was before, during my marriage. And yes, there was a part of me that thought I should just freaking get over it. I mean, it's just willpower, right? It's just determination, right? It's just faith, right? And the more I thought I should just get over it, because of the self's thought as well as society's thought, the pressure was huge to not take it. Then, the result of that was a compounding of the original issues with added stress that I should just get over it, handle it, talk it through with my friends, and just deal with it. I went into counseling, and for several months, I told my therapist I was not taking the drugs, that good old fashioned "talk" would work. It didn't work. I was so very close to suicide. I told my brother that I so low, I was looking up to see the bottom. I joked about it because that's one of my ways of dealing with the unknown. It wasn't until I was laying in bed literally thinking about how many tylenol pm's it would take to stop this hurting, this incessant thought pattern of "I'm no good, I can't do anything, I'm fat, ugly, I deserved nothing more than what I got, I can't function, I can't -I'm not - I'm this, that and the other thing - " and I just couldn't manage it day to day. Couldn't hold on. And worse, didn't want to hold on. I started the meds because I was willing to give myself one last chance to make it to a place I could survive - not live, not be happy, just survive. After some time tweaking the dosage, and watching for the side effects, my psychiatrist, my therapist, and I were able to get the world back right-side up. Did the meds make me happy? No. Did the meds make me "whole" no (I am still not sure what "whole" is). Did they perform a miracle after taking one pill - everything was good again, and I was perfect and capable of dealing with things? No.What they did do was stop the downward slide which would have ended in death and a ceasing of the torment I was in. Could I have done that by myself? Could I have just freaking gotten over it? No. I tried. I wish I could have, because of people's condemnation of anyone who needs and uses meds (self and extraneous). But I wasn't able to. So condemn me if you will, chastize me for being weakwilled and unable to work out of it. Ostracize me because I was close to killing myself but chose to give it one more try. Pretend you understand what it's like to be that caught in a medical condition that all you want is for it to stop...and that most people just don't understand.Your commentary about breeding negative genes into the pool is atrocious. What if your daughter had an illness (God forbid) which was genetic. Would you not do everything you could to sustain her? Provide for her? Help her any way you could? Of course you would. Why not allow me the same for myself? Your statement indicates something which I will not put into words...As to people using an SSRI (selective seratonin uptake inhibitor) to "feel good" or to "pop a pill", they have no idea how they work. I am not exactly sure of how they work, or I'd explain them to you. But it takes several weeks to see the effects, and it is not an immediate result. Did I get off them as soon as I could? Yes. Would I do the same with penicillin? Yes.Would I resist the same way if I were in the position I was before? I don't know. I would hope not, but societal pressure can be a gigantic factor. Justin, I am not flaming you. I am relating my story because you don't understand what it's like. You can't. But yet, you judge. You make statements like "freaking get over it", and it's not that easy. If it were, I'd've done it. I never wanted to die. I just wanted it to stop. And with meds, and counseling, it has mostly. Go ahead, everyone. Ostracize me for this. Shun me for this. It's not easy laying my heart out like this, but I did it so people can understand that they don't know - can't know - and yet behave as if they do. So ban me (yes, I am defensive -this is not an easy thing to put out here), but if you are ever there, I will be the first to reach my hand to you, and say "I understand. I've been there, and I know my fight, and I know what you're facing".Ciels and Pinks-MicheleLife is what you make it; always was, always will be.~Grandma Moses~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #64 May 23, 2002 Ah, I say, just throw the fat bastard out of the plane. He'll either land smooth or bounce.If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChromeBoy 0 #65 May 23, 2002 QuoteAh, I say, just throw the fat bastard out of the plane. He'll either land smooth or bounce.Fat Bastard. You didn't tell us it was Fat Bastard. He is a celebrity. Keep Mini Me away from him though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #66 May 23, 2002 **I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem.**Hook:you lying dog, you almost killed me on my very first skydive, remember how you tried to unhook me in freefall? J/K Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #67 May 23, 2002 "Git in my belly!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #68 May 23, 2002 Afternoon, Michele.Thanks for continuing the discussion flame-free. I appreciate it, and will try to reply in kind.Not that I have any right to "pass judgement" on your situation in any way, but even if I did, I would still have no objection with what you did. I feel like the perception is that I feel all mental illness should be untreated or seen as a failure of the individual. That is not the case.I explained a little bit about my role in helping a family member with a very clear case of bipolar. I don't think she is a bad person. I don't think she could "just suck up and deal" or "freakin' get over it". However, she does need to improve the coping skills she applies to her situation. Her medical professionals said the same thing. I've tried working with on that, with some success. She is on much less medication than she once was.The first issue I have with our society's use of medications is when they are haphazardly prescribed and/or taken. From your description, you did absolutely nothing of the sort. You waited much longer than most people in your shoes probably would. You had a medical need that you solved. Once the problem had been fully addressed, due to various factors, you got off the medication. That is as it should be. Drugs are a tool to be used carefully.Contrast your agonizing over whether to take medications with people that do so right away, without any consideration about the consequences. I find the "when in doubt, pop a pill" mentality to be a growing cultural problem. To clarify once again, I don't believe that applies to you. It is about the people who see prescription drugs almost recreationally. I never specified SSRI's when talking about people taking drugs on a whim. I never mentioned anything by name, except in the context of certain drugs being marketed on television to the public. I am not knowledgeable about SSRI's, nor did I ever claim to be. My problem is with the mentality itself, seeing those types of powerful medications as harmless or insignificant.I think you misunderstood my comment on genes. I do care for my daughter and would do everything within my power to help her. That said, she is in fact very likely to have at least one illness. Both my wife and I suffer from allergies. I have gross toe fungus (sorry for the TMI) and my wife has exercise induced asthma. There are other things (diabetes, bipolar, cancer) in our families as well. Chances are she will get at least some of these. Do I think my wife and I are bad people for possibly passing these genes on to our daughter. Nope.But does our culture lend itself toward increasing some of these characteristics in the gene pool where other cultures don't? I think so. Some of the things we are doing now will probably make diseases themselves more potent in the future. That goes to the antibiotic-resistant bacteria discussion. With the combination of weaking our immune systems and strengthening the bacteria strains, I believe we are setting ourselves up for big problems later on. Even if you remove the physical aspects completely, are we socially selecting a path of chemical dependence? Once again, maybe. It troubles me. Sit down and watch a night of network television. How many ads to you see for prescription drugs? Why are they trying to advertise to the masses? Is the message that casually taking this or that brand drug is normal and the doctor is merely a formality? They come across saying "Our drug is great! You should take some. Just get a doctor to write you that pesky prescription. Oh, by the way, FREE SAMPLES!" I dislike the message, and its effect on people. Call the whole big scenario negative social evolution. I feel it is a step backwards. Note that this in particular has nothing whatsover to do with the relationship between doctor and patient. It is not sound medical advice. It is not based on a valid medical need. It is the establishment of some relationship between phamaceutical manufacturer and potential buyer. Health is almost irrelevent. It is marketing to increase sales, regardless of actual need. The people that fall prey to such tactics when they don't really need something are the ones who should "just freakin' get over it". Chances are they might not really have the problem, or not to the degree where they should begin a nearly perpetual psychological reliance on medication.That isn't even going into perks given to doctors for prescribing certain drugs. That is a whole separate issue.I know people that lactaid without any basis for knowing they are lactose intolerant. They just guess, then follow through for years. There is nicotine water so people can get their fix without lighting up in a movie theater or restaurant. What's up with that? Talk about fostering chemical dependence.Boiled down, I'd have to say my objections are:1. Use of prescriptions by people that don't need them.2. Marketing of drugs as an expected part of everyday life.3. Overuse of drugs creating potential hazards for later.4. Medications used in place of positive lifestyle changes.5. Cultural expectations leading toward increased drug use.Nowhere in there do I say that particular illnesses shouldn't be treated, or that anyone needing medication shouldn't get it. I do think we need to be more discerning and cautious about the whole range of issues.Did this clear anything up?Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #69 May 23, 2002 Michelle,I admire your courage. I think you're right, unless you've been there it's really hard to understand or judge someone else. I'm glad you survived the ordeal you went through. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #70 May 23, 2002 Is it just me or is everyone getting two posts coming in at once? One group of people is talking about tandem jumping and another is talking about anti-depressant drugs. Maybe my computer is screwed up. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #71 May 23, 2002 Steve,The original discussion was about someone on Prozac doing a tandem. The conversation has completely diverged into tandems and drugs (not just anti-depressents), with no remaining connection between the two. Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gale 0 #72 May 23, 2002 I don't know you but I wish I did. You are brave and strong. Reading your post touched me. You did what it took to save your life, and isn't that what skydivers do all the time? I wouldn't condem you, I would suggest that your story may be inspirational to people who are in the same circumstance. Stay well.Just a point of reference: SSRI increase the seritonin in your brain, but this only works if you are in fact depressed. If a non-depressed person took them they might experience some side-effects but no "high" in any way. Even doctors are not clear exactly how or why these drugs work. Interestingly, (ha) often people are diagnosed after boing put on medication "oh, you responded to an SSRI - you must have been depressed, respond to lithium - and you must be bipolar"There is so much that is unknown about the brain and how it works that this is the best we can do right now, even though our best is pathetic.Also, and this is important, if you have a serious depression and you wait to get treatment it can make it VERY difficult to treat and you're more succeptable for relapse. Not to mention you will have to be on the drugs longer. If this stigma were removed maybe fewer people would be in this catagory. GaleIsn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #73 May 24, 2002 Gale,I agree with your post. What we know about the brain is very little. I guess with recent advances in technology this is changing rapidly though. Hopefully in the future we'll have greater insight. In terms of therapy, there are also a wide variety of ideas on this. I had one of my professors say that a person with a doctorate in psychology might be thought of as a type of "witch" doctor, because we know very little about what works best in this field. I believe that the right type of therapy can be very beneficial in the right situation, but there are also a lot of therapists out there who are really ineffective and even harmful. Hopefully this is another science that will improve in the future. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rgoper 0 #66 May 23, 2002 **I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem.**Hook:you lying dog, you almost killed me on my very first skydive, remember how you tried to unhook me in freefall? J/K Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #67 May 23, 2002 "Git in my belly!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #68 May 23, 2002 Afternoon, Michele.Thanks for continuing the discussion flame-free. I appreciate it, and will try to reply in kind.Not that I have any right to "pass judgement" on your situation in any way, but even if I did, I would still have no objection with what you did. I feel like the perception is that I feel all mental illness should be untreated or seen as a failure of the individual. That is not the case.I explained a little bit about my role in helping a family member with a very clear case of bipolar. I don't think she is a bad person. I don't think she could "just suck up and deal" or "freakin' get over it". However, she does need to improve the coping skills she applies to her situation. Her medical professionals said the same thing. I've tried working with on that, with some success. She is on much less medication than she once was.The first issue I have with our society's use of medications is when they are haphazardly prescribed and/or taken. From your description, you did absolutely nothing of the sort. You waited much longer than most people in your shoes probably would. You had a medical need that you solved. Once the problem had been fully addressed, due to various factors, you got off the medication. That is as it should be. Drugs are a tool to be used carefully.Contrast your agonizing over whether to take medications with people that do so right away, without any consideration about the consequences. I find the "when in doubt, pop a pill" mentality to be a growing cultural problem. To clarify once again, I don't believe that applies to you. It is about the people who see prescription drugs almost recreationally. I never specified SSRI's when talking about people taking drugs on a whim. I never mentioned anything by name, except in the context of certain drugs being marketed on television to the public. I am not knowledgeable about SSRI's, nor did I ever claim to be. My problem is with the mentality itself, seeing those types of powerful medications as harmless or insignificant.I think you misunderstood my comment on genes. I do care for my daughter and would do everything within my power to help her. That said, she is in fact very likely to have at least one illness. Both my wife and I suffer from allergies. I have gross toe fungus (sorry for the TMI) and my wife has exercise induced asthma. There are other things (diabetes, bipolar, cancer) in our families as well. Chances are she will get at least some of these. Do I think my wife and I are bad people for possibly passing these genes on to our daughter. Nope.But does our culture lend itself toward increasing some of these characteristics in the gene pool where other cultures don't? I think so. Some of the things we are doing now will probably make diseases themselves more potent in the future. That goes to the antibiotic-resistant bacteria discussion. With the combination of weaking our immune systems and strengthening the bacteria strains, I believe we are setting ourselves up for big problems later on. Even if you remove the physical aspects completely, are we socially selecting a path of chemical dependence? Once again, maybe. It troubles me. Sit down and watch a night of network television. How many ads to you see for prescription drugs? Why are they trying to advertise to the masses? Is the message that casually taking this or that brand drug is normal and the doctor is merely a formality? They come across saying "Our drug is great! You should take some. Just get a doctor to write you that pesky prescription. Oh, by the way, FREE SAMPLES!" I dislike the message, and its effect on people. Call the whole big scenario negative social evolution. I feel it is a step backwards. Note that this in particular has nothing whatsover to do with the relationship between doctor and patient. It is not sound medical advice. It is not based on a valid medical need. It is the establishment of some relationship between phamaceutical manufacturer and potential buyer. Health is almost irrelevent. It is marketing to increase sales, regardless of actual need. The people that fall prey to such tactics when they don't really need something are the ones who should "just freakin' get over it". Chances are they might not really have the problem, or not to the degree where they should begin a nearly perpetual psychological reliance on medication.That isn't even going into perks given to doctors for prescribing certain drugs. That is a whole separate issue.I know people that lactaid without any basis for knowing they are lactose intolerant. They just guess, then follow through for years. There is nicotine water so people can get their fix without lighting up in a movie theater or restaurant. What's up with that? Talk about fostering chemical dependence.Boiled down, I'd have to say my objections are:1. Use of prescriptions by people that don't need them.2. Marketing of drugs as an expected part of everyday life.3. Overuse of drugs creating potential hazards for later.4. Medications used in place of positive lifestyle changes.5. Cultural expectations leading toward increased drug use.Nowhere in there do I say that particular illnesses shouldn't be treated, or that anyone needing medication shouldn't get it. I do think we need to be more discerning and cautious about the whole range of issues.Did this clear anything up?Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #69 May 23, 2002 Michelle,I admire your courage. I think you're right, unless you've been there it's really hard to understand or judge someone else. I'm glad you survived the ordeal you went through. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #70 May 23, 2002 Is it just me or is everyone getting two posts coming in at once? One group of people is talking about tandem jumping and another is talking about anti-depressant drugs. Maybe my computer is screwed up. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #71 May 23, 2002 Steve,The original discussion was about someone on Prozac doing a tandem. The conversation has completely diverged into tandems and drugs (not just anti-depressents), with no remaining connection between the two. Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gale 0 #72 May 23, 2002 I don't know you but I wish I did. You are brave and strong. Reading your post touched me. You did what it took to save your life, and isn't that what skydivers do all the time? I wouldn't condem you, I would suggest that your story may be inspirational to people who are in the same circumstance. Stay well.Just a point of reference: SSRI increase the seritonin in your brain, but this only works if you are in fact depressed. If a non-depressed person took them they might experience some side-effects but no "high" in any way. Even doctors are not clear exactly how or why these drugs work. Interestingly, (ha) often people are diagnosed after boing put on medication "oh, you responded to an SSRI - you must have been depressed, respond to lithium - and you must be bipolar"There is so much that is unknown about the brain and how it works that this is the best we can do right now, even though our best is pathetic.Also, and this is important, if you have a serious depression and you wait to get treatment it can make it VERY difficult to treat and you're more succeptable for relapse. Not to mention you will have to be on the drugs longer. If this stigma were removed maybe fewer people would be in this catagory. GaleIsn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #73 May 24, 2002 Gale,I agree with your post. What we know about the brain is very little. I guess with recent advances in technology this is changing rapidly though. Hopefully in the future we'll have greater insight. In terms of therapy, there are also a wide variety of ideas on this. I had one of my professors say that a person with a doctorate in psychology might be thought of as a type of "witch" doctor, because we know very little about what works best in this field. I believe that the right type of therapy can be very beneficial in the right situation, but there are also a lot of therapists out there who are really ineffective and even harmful. Hopefully this is another science that will improve in the future. 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jfields 0 #68 May 23, 2002 Afternoon, Michele.Thanks for continuing the discussion flame-free. I appreciate it, and will try to reply in kind.Not that I have any right to "pass judgement" on your situation in any way, but even if I did, I would still have no objection with what you did. I feel like the perception is that I feel all mental illness should be untreated or seen as a failure of the individual. That is not the case.I explained a little bit about my role in helping a family member with a very clear case of bipolar. I don't think she is a bad person. I don't think she could "just suck up and deal" or "freakin' get over it". However, she does need to improve the coping skills she applies to her situation. Her medical professionals said the same thing. I've tried working with on that, with some success. She is on much less medication than she once was.The first issue I have with our society's use of medications is when they are haphazardly prescribed and/or taken. From your description, you did absolutely nothing of the sort. You waited much longer than most people in your shoes probably would. You had a medical need that you solved. Once the problem had been fully addressed, due to various factors, you got off the medication. That is as it should be. Drugs are a tool to be used carefully.Contrast your agonizing over whether to take medications with people that do so right away, without any consideration about the consequences. I find the "when in doubt, pop a pill" mentality to be a growing cultural problem. To clarify once again, I don't believe that applies to you. It is about the people who see prescription drugs almost recreationally. I never specified SSRI's when talking about people taking drugs on a whim. I never mentioned anything by name, except in the context of certain drugs being marketed on television to the public. I am not knowledgeable about SSRI's, nor did I ever claim to be. My problem is with the mentality itself, seeing those types of powerful medications as harmless or insignificant.I think you misunderstood my comment on genes. I do care for my daughter and would do everything within my power to help her. That said, she is in fact very likely to have at least one illness. Both my wife and I suffer from allergies. I have gross toe fungus (sorry for the TMI) and my wife has exercise induced asthma. There are other things (diabetes, bipolar, cancer) in our families as well. Chances are she will get at least some of these. Do I think my wife and I are bad people for possibly passing these genes on to our daughter. Nope.But does our culture lend itself toward increasing some of these characteristics in the gene pool where other cultures don't? I think so. Some of the things we are doing now will probably make diseases themselves more potent in the future. That goes to the antibiotic-resistant bacteria discussion. With the combination of weaking our immune systems and strengthening the bacteria strains, I believe we are setting ourselves up for big problems later on. Even if you remove the physical aspects completely, are we socially selecting a path of chemical dependence? Once again, maybe. It troubles me. Sit down and watch a night of network television. How many ads to you see for prescription drugs? Why are they trying to advertise to the masses? Is the message that casually taking this or that brand drug is normal and the doctor is merely a formality? They come across saying "Our drug is great! You should take some. Just get a doctor to write you that pesky prescription. Oh, by the way, FREE SAMPLES!" I dislike the message, and its effect on people. Call the whole big scenario negative social evolution. I feel it is a step backwards. Note that this in particular has nothing whatsover to do with the relationship between doctor and patient. It is not sound medical advice. It is not based on a valid medical need. It is the establishment of some relationship between phamaceutical manufacturer and potential buyer. Health is almost irrelevent. It is marketing to increase sales, regardless of actual need. The people that fall prey to such tactics when they don't really need something are the ones who should "just freakin' get over it". Chances are they might not really have the problem, or not to the degree where they should begin a nearly perpetual psychological reliance on medication.That isn't even going into perks given to doctors for prescribing certain drugs. That is a whole separate issue.I know people that lactaid without any basis for knowing they are lactose intolerant. They just guess, then follow through for years. There is nicotine water so people can get their fix without lighting up in a movie theater or restaurant. What's up with that? Talk about fostering chemical dependence.Boiled down, I'd have to say my objections are:1. Use of prescriptions by people that don't need them.2. Marketing of drugs as an expected part of everyday life.3. Overuse of drugs creating potential hazards for later.4. Medications used in place of positive lifestyle changes.5. Cultural expectations leading toward increased drug use.Nowhere in there do I say that particular illnesses shouldn't be treated, or that anyone needing medication shouldn't get it. I do think we need to be more discerning and cautious about the whole range of issues.Did this clear anything up?Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #69 May 23, 2002 Michelle,I admire your courage. I think you're right, unless you've been there it's really hard to understand or judge someone else. I'm glad you survived the ordeal you went through. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #70 May 23, 2002 Is it just me or is everyone getting two posts coming in at once? One group of people is talking about tandem jumping and another is talking about anti-depressant drugs. Maybe my computer is screwed up. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #71 May 23, 2002 Steve,The original discussion was about someone on Prozac doing a tandem. The conversation has completely diverged into tandems and drugs (not just anti-depressents), with no remaining connection between the two. Justin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gale 0 #72 May 23, 2002 I don't know you but I wish I did. You are brave and strong. Reading your post touched me. You did what it took to save your life, and isn't that what skydivers do all the time? I wouldn't condem you, I would suggest that your story may be inspirational to people who are in the same circumstance. Stay well.Just a point of reference: SSRI increase the seritonin in your brain, but this only works if you are in fact depressed. If a non-depressed person took them they might experience some side-effects but no "high" in any way. Even doctors are not clear exactly how or why these drugs work. Interestingly, (ha) often people are diagnosed after boing put on medication "oh, you responded to an SSRI - you must have been depressed, respond to lithium - and you must be bipolar"There is so much that is unknown about the brain and how it works that this is the best we can do right now, even though our best is pathetic.Also, and this is important, if you have a serious depression and you wait to get treatment it can make it VERY difficult to treat and you're more succeptable for relapse. Not to mention you will have to be on the drugs longer. If this stigma were removed maybe fewer people would be in this catagory. GaleIsn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #73 May 24, 2002 Gale,I agree with your post. What we know about the brain is very little. I guess with recent advances in technology this is changing rapidly though. Hopefully in the future we'll have greater insight. In terms of therapy, there are also a wide variety of ideas on this. I had one of my professors say that a person with a doctorate in psychology might be thought of as a type of "witch" doctor, because we know very little about what works best in this field. I believe that the right type of therapy can be very beneficial in the right situation, but there are also a lot of therapists out there who are really ineffective and even harmful. Hopefully this is another science that will improve in the future. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
