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skycat

Not again

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>When I talked about "innocent people" earlier, I was referring to >people like this llittle girl who will never get the chance to grow up
> and experience the wonders life holds for us ...

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Had she been stabbed or strangled to death, would she have had a better chance to grow up? Is murder by gun worse than murder by baseball bat?

>because someone she knew owned a gun, and chose to use it on
> her.

So, by your logic, had that father not had a gun, he perhaps would have decided "well, I want to kill my family, but I'll have to use a knife instead . . . just too much trouble. I'll watch TV instead." It would be great if that were true, but the papers are just as full of stories of parents shaking their infants to death, throwing them out windows, drowning them, and stabbing them.

There was murder before there were guns. There is still murder in places where guns are banned. Police reports indicate that violent crime and murder rates go _down_ in areas where people can arm themselves.

If you are against murder by gun, but sorta Ok with the other kinds, then by all means, push gun control. But if you're against murder and violent crime of all kinds, the evidence just doesn't support the idea that banning guns will cut down on violence.

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i support the right to bear arms and the right to arm bears!!!:P.... seriously i own a few guns (yes they are registered) i hope i never have to use them. but i woul d never like to see that right taken away from me.
(if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns)
nuff said!
if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

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"Some f'er can take you out any minute with their car when you're walking down the street. The same guy in the pub can take you out with a beer bottle."


I'm afraid that this argument is non-sense to me. I'm a reasonably big guy and if some guy tries that on with me with a bottle, knife, screwdriver I like my chances of survival a lot more. As you said yourself, when a gun is brought into the equation, none of that matters.
I would really love an explanation (I'm sure I'll get one) as to how guns help to "keep the playing field even". Must everyone carry a gun? Of the same calibre?
Another problem I have with guns is that in the heat of the moment they can be used to much greater effect than someone's fists. I really wonder how many shootings would have merely involved a broken jaw or nose if neither party was carrying a gun. Yes, you can kill someone with just about anything if you want, but a gun ups the ante a lot.

I am not a hysterical anti-gun campaigner . I am simply glad my country is different in this regard (and yes, I can offer you all the stats you want if need be). America has a problem. You already have a wide circulation of guns and a lot of the population is passionate about keeping them. I'll be damned if I know the answer, but I'm sorry, from where I sit, it doesn't seem to be working for you.
I can understand your passion.I am willing to concede there is every chance that if I had grown up in your country, and had been told that it was my inherent right to have guns I would want to protect that right as well. That not being the case, I quite like living in a society that has far fewer guns. Maybe I'll be stabbed tonight.

All I can say further is that I would fight to protect my country’s stance on gun control because it does seem to be working here.

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I'm a reasonably big guy and if some guy tries that on with me with a bottle, knife, screwdriver I like my chances of survival a lot more. As you said yourself, when a gun is brought into the equation, none of that matters.



That's why I hope my mother/girlfriend/wife/daughter has access to a firearm when a reasonably big guy like yourself tries to rape/kill her. So that none of his size matters.

Maybe that's not much of an argument to a big guy like yourself. But it sure matters to me that the people I care about be able to protect themselves from the bruisers of the world.

Heck, one day you may find yourself injured, disabled, or just plain old. When that young, big guy wants to take your wallet then, I bet you'd rather have a firearm.

It's not about leveling the playing field for people like you. It's about leveling the playing field with people like you.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I don't mean to be rude Tom but it is easy to cloud the topic with emotive responses. You have obviously taken my remarks about being "reasonably big" and gone for a nice run down a tangent. All I meant was simply that my chances of survival increase if someone doesn't have a gun. I hope a "guy like myself" never rapes or kills your mother or sister - or mine for that matter.

Did you read the rest of my post or stop after you saw "reasonably big"?

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As I usually seem to annoy both liberals and conservatives about the same amount, I figure I'm the middle kind.



I'm a conservative and you don't annoy me at all!:)
Blue skies Bill. Be safe out there!



_________________________________________
Chris






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Finally, somebody has hit the nail on the head. America DOES have a problem. It's not guns, it's not swimming pools, it's our culture. You don't see as many serial killers, school shootings, etc in other countries as you do in the US (for example). We are a more violent culture. Not just anybody can get a concealed weapons permit (if you state has such laws). As far as guns having only one purpose and that is to kill people....Well, if you could be any more misinformed, let me know. Guns have many purposes. Hunting, sport shooting (trap, target, etc), self defense, offense (killing human beings...war, police, etc.), and collecting are just a few purposes guns are made for. Gun safety is the primary goal of all responsible gun owners. We are not cowboys, crazy people, or wackos...we are your neighbor, your friend, and possibly your savior should the situation warrant. This is a very important topic for me personally. There is a debate as to whether pilots should be allowed to have firearms in the cockpit (after proper training). I would rather have a firearm at my disposal and NEVER need it than to be killed because I didn't have a gun and hence never had a fighting chance. Let us protect you and your loved ones to the best of our ability.

Pilot/Jumper Steve
Give me ambiguity...or something else.

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If you know you're going to start a flame war, then why the fuck post it?

Mark, just like you, I have every right to state my opinion. I don't expect you to agree, but I do expect you to respect my rights ... I believe the only people who should be permitted to carry firearms are law enforcement officers. I will never own a gun -- and thankfully my country has strong gun control legislation.



There's stating an opinion and then there's trolling for posts. Gun control wouldn't have prevented the shooting, it's already a federal crime to bring a firearm onto airport property. It's already a "gun controlled" area.

As far as I recall you don't even live in the US, so how we handle guns is pretty much open to the people that live and vote here, just like you can influence your country's right to live without guns. Outsiders sure as hell don't have to like how we live.

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was referring to people like this llittle girl who will never get the chance to grow up and experience the wonders life holds for us ... because someone she knew owned a gun, and chose to use it on her.



It's obviously an emotional issue for you, therefore nothing I can ever say will change your mind.

It's a logical issue for me, therefore nothing emotional you can say will change my mind.

You show me a child killed with a gun, I'll show you a father using one to scare off an intruder from his home or a woman fending off a rapist.

When someone builds a "phaser set on stun" gun that's just as effective as a handgun and our police forces uses them for personal defense(because they really ARE effective enough to replace slug throwers), I'll gladly turn in my Glocks. But until then, I feel they're the best form of defense we have and choose to live in a country and state that allows me the use of them.

Again, if you don't like it then don't live here.

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yeah, British gun control works:

The London Daily Mail newspaper says (2/23/2001) that, according to an international crime report, Britain "has a higher crime rate than any other rich nation except Australia." According to this crime report, 3.6 percent of the population of England and Wales were victims of violent crime in 1999; in the U.S. only two percent of the population suffered an assault or robbery. British Home Secretary Jack Straw is quoted as saying: "Levels of victimization are higher here than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime."

As for gun-crime, the British The Observer newspaper has reported (12/31/2000):

Gun crime in Britain is soaring to record levels: executions, woundings and related incidents in the past year are set to be the highest ever, an investigation by The Observer has revealed.... The true figures could be even higher because victims of many of the most violent gun crimes are reluctant to involve the authorities.... The use of guns outside the big towns and cities is rising too.... The number of illegally held guns is estimated at three million. As handguns can no longer be bought or sold legally, the police believe the vast majority of those coming on to the market have been smuggled from abroad.

Lee

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The London Daily Mail newspaper says (2/23/2001) that, according to an international crime report, Britain "has a higher crime rate than any other rich nation except Australia." According to this crime report, 3.6 percent of the population of England and Wales were victims of violent crime in 1999; in the U.S. only two percent of the population suffered an assault or robbery. British Home Secretary Jack Straw is quoted as saying: "Levels of victimization are higher here than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime."




This is very interesting when you consider that those screaming the loudest about gun control are from GB and Australia.

Hmm.... Gun control, yeah, that'll work.

-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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funny jimbo, it's normally people that have no idea how to use a gun, and think the world should be fair. You and I know fair most times has very little to do with life. Life is what you make out of it regardless of how fair it is. Don't let things happen, make things happen.

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im not sure where they got there figures because i live in a australia , and one of the more gang infested places and "violent crime" isnt that often here and shotting rampages pretty much never happen, however that is beside the point, there is a ways to decrease the number of gun deaths it just needs someone with balls(in politics) to do it 1. cut the accidental deaths by having cops come in and teach all kids from the early age at school about guns and safety and how to handle them properly as well as how much damage it can cause(note this doesnt mean how to shoot them, but what to do if they find a gun, and if for some reason they have to pick it up what the safety mechanisms are , how to clear it etc. the ppl of the US have generally chosen to make guns a large part of your culture and yet children arnt tought about it, yet dont take candy from/talk to a stranger, how to cross the road etc (i assume) are taught, telling a kid dont touch that its bad doesnt work they need to know why,

next all owners must be a (generally) good shot as well as proficent in handiling safety etc, theres nothing more dangerous than somebody paniking without proper training, next all guns must come in a lock box with key.
and most importantly ownership responsibility if some kid does shoot up there school, or someone shoots themselves or someone else then the owner is held legally responsible (as well as the person) as it is up to them to ensure the gun is stowed away properly

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the ppl of the US have generally chosen to make guns a large part of your culture and yet children arnt tought about it

all owners must be a (generally) good shot as well as proficent in handiling safety etc, theres nothing more dangerous than somebody paniking without proper training

next all guns must come in a lock box with key.



Do you realize you've just stated the agenda of the National Rifle Association (the biggest U.S. pro-gun group)?

The primary mission of the NRA is to promote safe and responsible gun ownership through education.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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