More Iraqistan debate

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Tony Blair, Uncle Sam's favourite nephew, has finally published his dossier of evidence against bad boy Saddam.
If you are interested in the official reasons that we will probably send some of our people over there to support the US they are here......
http://www.ukonline.gov.uk/Home/HOHome/1,1031,~801b22~fs~en,00.html

Please note I am only posting this to encourage debate, so please don't flame the messenger....
peace,
D

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[billvon 2,400]

>Tony Blair . . .has finally published his dossier of evidence against
> bad boy Saddam.

So a summary of his CBN capabilities might read:

-He has chemical and biological weapons; the chemical weapons are almost certainly potent, the biological weapons may be potent.

-He is trying to make nuclear weapons but he's not there yet; there are significant hurdles remaining, and he could probably not do it in less than a year.

-He might have 20 missiles that may reach Israel.

I find it interesting that we've sorta shifted from finding the people responsible for 9/11 to going after Saddam because he's bad and he might bomb Israel. Remember all those posters that showed the Twin Towers falling down that said "Never forget?" Odd that we find it so easy to be distracted by someone who had nothing to do with 9/11. I hope we do not give up our fight against the terrorist organizations that perpetrated 9/11 while we invade someone else's country.

A good article from the Washington Post on this sort of priority shift:

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Accidental or not, the hallmark of Bush's style is an ability to shift justifications for a set policy. On the subject of deposing Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, the administration at first sought, after Sept. 11, 2001, to link Iraq to al Qaeda and the attacks. Later, Bush's rationale shifted to a policy of "preempting" those who would use weapons of mass destruction. But two weeks ago, the White House decided to downplay the preemption argument. Just days before Bush made his U.N. speech on Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld wrote a defense of preemption in a commentary submitted to The Washington Post. The administration withdrew Rumsfeld's article prior to publication, and Bush came out six days later with an additional argument that confronting Hussein was necessary to preserve U.N. integrity.

"It's an argument that, until he made the speech, no one had heard," said GOP strategist Ralph Reed. Instead of making the case for unilateral U.S. preemptive action, as foes expected, "he took the argument of multilateral action and turned it on its head." Suddenly, Bush was arguing that taking on Iraq was necessary to preserve the U.N.'s multilateral character.

The pattern was familiar. In the 2000 campaign, Bush spoke of the need for a tax cut as an "insurance policy" against an economic downturn. Once the downturn came, he continued to argue for the same tax cut as the best way to stimulate an ailing economy -- even though it would be years before most of the cuts took effect. He also argued for the tax cut philosophically, as a way to keep government from growing and morally, as a way to return money to those who earned it.

[FallRate 0]

I vote for a "thread lock" before this even gets started!!!

FallRate

[quatorze 1]

This counts as vote # 2

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[fool 0]

cheers

S.E.X. party #1

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride".

[rhino 0]

Fuck it.. Send in the Marines..

Enough said

[Phil 0]

I hear ya. I like the fact, that they always say, that if Iraq will have the A-bomb, that this could cause a strong shift in power-balance in the middle east. Well hell yea, it would even out, after Israel, finally someone else has it too. Now thats good news, no? And we know, both parties would have no problems using it either...

...
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how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[ramon 0]

and..
he had Scud missles that could reach Israel in 1991. He still had some after the war.

It is no easy feat to make longer range ones. They pretty much have to be bought from the US or Russia.

Lies propogated by the policy makers.

Donald Rumsfeld "Iraq expelled the inspectors." (he has been saying this over and over, they left on their own to avoid getting hit by british planes.

Bush, "in 1991 Hussein was going to invade Saudi Arabia" (??? what)

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Phil 0]

Quote

they left on their own to avoid getting hit by british planes

...and thats after the british and canadians got hit by the USAF...

so no matter who you are, if the USAF or USMC is in the air, you better start running for cover because even if you're a friend, they will still bomb you... aint life a bitch...

...
..
.

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[Airhead 0]

Regardless of my online name, I can hold my own in a debate.
You asked for it. Okay? But you Do know that we- the general public rarely "sees" the whole picture, right? BUT FIRST: Have YOU ever been involved within the military or within the government? I need an answer here before I say a whole lot more, to get a good perspective of where and how you look at government SPIN.

[Phil 0]

It does not take any military experience to figure out, when power in politics are being abused.

I would suggest, that where it is available, go and read some online newspapers that are not US based and try to get an outside-picture of the whole thing.

I think a lot of US citizens would be horrified to find out, that there is a strong missmatch between what they are getting "news-fed" and what is being told in countries outside the US about the same subject.

...
..
.

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[Airhead 0]

Alright.
You have some specific on-line sources in-mind? Care to share with the rest of us Phil?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I generally trust the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2280008.stm
for example gives you a flavour of whats happening this side of the pond.
And of course, the continued good natured exchange of views and opinions of people like ourselves has got to be good.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Airhead 0]

Cool!
Thanks. I'll check it out. Gotta go back to work. I'll check back in with the debate..
...LATER

• Quote

[Phil 0]

http://www.nzz.ch/english/index.html
mirror.co.uk

and I'm sure you can find many others too.


...
..
.

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[ramon 0]

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Here's my plan:

1) We develop nuclear fusion power so we don't need oil anymore.

2) Pull out of the middle east entirely & build a big fence around it & forget about them.

The end.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,400]

>I would suggest, that where it is available, go and read some online
> newspapers that are not US based and try to get an outside-picture
> of the whole thing.

That. I think, is an excellent suggestion. Even the BBC, a news service of one of our strongest allies, has a much less provincial view of the world than our news services do.

[billvon 2,400]

>You asked for it. Okay? But you Do know that we- the general public
> rarely "sees" the whole picture, right?

Right.

>BUT FIRST: Have YOU ever been involved within the military or within
> the government? I need an answer here before I say a whole lot
>more . . .

Yes, as a civilian employee of a government contractor (Grumman Aerospace) contracted out to the Navy and Air Force.

[ramon 0]

I agree with most everything you say and I was in the military 10 years and was involved in 'intelligence'.

In fact I resigned 6 years ago and they won't let me totally go because of it.

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Airhead 0]

Maybe this'll kick start an interesting discussion:
The eye-opener I got was when I was in the Army (for eight years) during "peace time." I was a woman in a male dominated specialty- and by "this and that"- learned a lot about the system, the government, and often times, behind the scenes how things are made to happen or not happen if you will...
I found State Representitives and Senators were helpful during troubled times that I had while in the military. It can be really tricky and dangeous at times to be the "little guy" who's making waves about sensitive issues. You CAN but you better have some important people on your side or have lots of support and publicity.
Sorry to be so vague .

[ramon 0]

You are soo. right. Getting a senator to write a letter to your division commander/jag officer/battalion commander can make something happen. I have seen it in action when a national guardsman was not getting paid correctly... 5 months of nothing...letter..shit hitting fan and rolling down hill followed by staff people bending over backwards tosee that soldier got what was owed.

Could backfire in certain situation I guess, but in this case the chain of command was behind the soldier and the staff people were doing nothing..until..

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Airhead 0]

I guess I'm a little paranoid...Ever seen that movie: "Enemy of the State"?
You know there really is government intelligence that screens communication systems and intecepts messages that include certain "red flag" words and phrases. I don't want to be someone that comes under scrutinty(spelling?)...You know what I mean?

[ramon 0]

Movies are movies.

The FBI's program is called Carnivore (do a search on the web)

sabotage, espionage, secret, cocaine, explosives, coup, hack, crack, phreak, drugs, narcotics, piracy, warez, opium, hash, weapons, nukes, neutralize, asassinate, cosmic, ICBM, treaty, revolution, rebellion....etc

are words looked for bu it on the web

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Skyrad 0]

The FBI is small fry compared with Project Echalon.
Think it doesn't exist? Think again....
http://duncan.gn.apc.org/ic2kreport.htm#Summary

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca