Near incident low opening AAD fire

[strop45 0]

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Can you check altitude whilst tracking ? Difficult I would think

Actually not too difficult. Rotate your arms so that your hands are palm up. This allows you to look back at your alti and also tends to roll your shoulders down helping you de-arch and track better. Talk to your instructors.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I am a student too and had a similar experience on jump 12. I didn't get as low as you did, but low enough to scare me. It wasn't the absolute altitude that scared me as much as the loss of control. I got unstable while tracking and fell a couple of sphincter tightening thousand feet before I got canopy overhead.

To make matters worse, I got a nice bridle slap bruise on my forearm on that jump. The thought that I could have induced a horseshoe malfunction that would probably have immobilized my right arm was sobering.

Of course, my next jump was #13.....

At my coach's suggestion, I did a couple of solo jumps WITH VIDEO working on tracking. The video combined with good debriefing from my coach (who watched the video but who was not on the jump) helped me improve my tracking enough that I could move on to other skills.

Of course, the video flyer laughing wildly at my poor performance was a great motivator! In his defense, when I did get it right, he was equally animated and happy for me.

At this time, my tracking has lots of room for improvement, but it isn't so bad that it is a problem at this stage in my training.

Good Luck!

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[riggerrob 558]

Obviously I couldn't check my altitude during the track ...

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Wrist-mounted altimeters, chest-mounted altimeters, beepers, flashing lights, AADs, etc. are all merely training aids on the way to altitude awareness.

In the long run, you should learn how to judge altitude by time and eyeball.
In the long run, you will develop a keen awareness of how big the planet looks at opening time, ergo: no need to look at a dial while tracking.
I rarely glance at my altimeter between break-off and the time I have completed my canopy check. My eyeballs are far better off "outside the cockpit," looking for other skydivers, looking at trees, looking at my canopy, etc.

Here is a game that I sometimes play with my PFF students. While riding in the airplane, I cover their altimeter and ask them how high we are.

[riggerrob 558]

It wasn't the absolute altitude that scared me as much as the loss of control. I got unstable while tracking ...

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There are two popular methods for teaching tracking: delta and dead spider.

Old-school skydivers tend to teach tracking by "shaping" it from a delta. The only disadvantage with this method is that some skydivers get lazy, and a thousand jumps later have not progressed much beyond a delta.

New-school coaches prefer "shape" tracking from a dead-spider. Dead-spider is the old-school definition of slow-falling on your belly.
There is some amazing video of Arizona Airspeed members - during a training camp in Kapowsin. The Airspeed member dead-spidered, popped up, turned and tracked out of the video before most other jumpers had completed their turns. That quickly put him 2 or 3 yards/meters above - for a better view. It also got him open a couple of seconds earlier, at a safer altitude. It also got him open farther out than the rest.

The moral of the story is that if you start your track by "grabbing air," then turning, then extending your legs, you will skydive like a world champion.

[faulknerwn 37]

Absolutely - more so in my younger, skinnier years but still quite true now - at the end of any RW dive I would just relax and instantly be 10 feet above the formation and would be a thousand feet above a lot of folks at the end of the track. Being light and slow is a huge help in that, but for bigger folks, dead-spidering first would make a big difference..

On a dive I was on recently, I was tracking forward about the same speed as the guy beside me, but he was dropping like a rock. He dumped at the same horizontal distance from the center of the formation as I, but I was a thousand feet above him so I kept tracking. I feel much safer being able to look down at most of the people around me on a skydive after a track..

[brianfry713 0]

With today's gear, IMHO 4,000 is the minimum safe breakoff altitude for very experienced RW jumpers. If you choose to breakoff then, you'd better be quick. There isn't time to waste. You need to know your altitude immediately, turn quickly, track hard for a short period of time, and pull without hesitation.

If you are still new to tracking or skydiving, you need to break off higher. You should know you are around 1,000 feet lower than breakoff when you pull if you do this quickly and get adequate separation. If you find you are low at breakoff, you need to rush it even more. You should quickly consider the risks of inadequate separation with your group and the planet and choose which one is your main concern. Ideally you are far enough away from the group and the Earth before you pull, or you need to work on that before the next group jump. If you have to you can sacrifice one for the other, but either one can kill you.

One more reason to look at your altimeter before you pull if you know you are low, is to avoid a 2-out. Depending on your gear, If you are already below 2,000 feet, you should consider going straight to your reserve to avoid AAD activation before your main has a chance to slow you down.

Yes you can check your altimeter during a track. Just twist your left wrist and look at it. There is no need to stop tracking. Go practice.

[skydvr69 0]

How does one "dead spider"? I was taught delta...

[riggerrob 558]

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How does one "dead spider"? I was taught delta...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Go ask your local belly-flying formation skydiving coach to explain "slow fall."

Basically, a "dead spider" consists of grabbing as much air as possible to slow your fall rate. A dead spider starts by pulling your belly button (navel) towards your spine to reverse arch the middle of your spine.

Then you tilt your pelvis forward a little to de-arch the bottom of your spine.

Then you lower your chin to de-arch the top of your spine.

Continue the process by rolling your shoulders forward.

Finally, fully extend your lower legs to expose the maximum surface area to the wind.

In the end, your forearms and lower legs are flat on the floor, with your torso "cupping" air.

One way to practice "dead spidering" is to lay on the floor and contract all the muscles - on the front of your body - until your torso is a few inches off the floor, with all your weight resting on your lower legs and forearms.

If that sounds unstable .... it is. It is quite common for people to slide around the sky the first time they try "dead spider."

That is why it is best to practice "dead spidering" under the eyes of a formation skydiving (aka. relative work or bellytivework) coach. Ideally, you would also have video to help fine tune your body position.

[wildfan75 1]

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That sounds great, but slow down. I am from a small cesna DZ. Wow, talking about budgeting coaching dives and extra for video is foreign to me.

I'm from a small Cessna dz too. We don't charge for coaching or instruction or video, blah, blah, blah, but maybe try this:
Is there a swooper vidiot there? Next time s/he's planning on doing a hnp because s/he just wants to swoop and not do any RW, ask them if they can throw their camera helmet on (or any vidiot that's just doing a hnp), go to full altitude and video your jump. Tell them that you'll pay the difference in their jump ticket. Get the video burned and ask any instructor that will give you their time to look over it with you.

[diablopilot 2]

Based off practical experience, flattening your body with both arms and legs parallel to each other and fully extended has been shown to have a better recovery rat and more control than the traditional dead spider.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[darkwing 4]

the dead spider is dead.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[billvon 2,426]

> Based off practical experience, flattening your body with both arms
> and legs parallel to each other and fully extended has been shown to
>have a better recovery rat and more control than the traditional dead spider.

That works much better if you have booties. (There's actually an even better position with your booties turned inwards and your arms all the way out, but the one you described isn't bad.)

[pcrt 0]

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Buy an audible altimeter!

you gizmo dependant kids of the new school classes. pay attention to the old farts advice kid......

Or...you can always look at the planet!

And the well informed youth of today.....

In the early eighties I met a man with over 7000 jumps (kinda rare back then) who didn't even own an altimeter. When I asked him how he knew when to pull he replied, "when a Ford looks like a Ford". From that day forward altimeters, to me, were for back up only.

~Paul Creel SCS-5015

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Buy an audible altimeter!

I could never hear any alarm on my Pro-track apart from the flatline and made more than a few jumps that I didn't hear my Skytronic after its batteries wore down a bit.

Provided that you have formed the right visual references, looking at the ground is the only way of figuring out altitude that works in spite of equipment problems.

Looking at a reasonably located (I'm pretty fond of my chest mount or some one else's chest mount on a flat formation) altimeter which can be observed to move (or not - I broke one) on the way down is the next best thing.

Audibles often aren't and don't always fail in a deterministic manner (like the Pro-track's low battery beeps on the ride up).

[hukturn 0]

Look at the planet? Why?

There is no need to look down. We have GPS, so we don't spot. We have Altimeteres so we don't have to look at the earth, we have Audible Altimeters so that we don't have to look at the Altimeter and we have AAD's so we don't have to listen to the audible.

I love it!! C'mon guys, technology is great!

[hukturn 0]

When people look like ants, pull. When ants look like people, pray.

[riggerrob 558]

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Buy an audible altimeter!

I could never hear any alarm on my Pro-track apart from the flatline and made more than a few jumps that I didn't hear my Skytronic after its batteries wore down a bit.

Provided that you have formed the right visual references, looking at the ground is the only way of figuring out altitude that works in spite of equipment problems.

Looking at a reasonably located (I'm pretty fond of my chest mount or some one else's chest mount on a flat formation) altimeter which can be observed to move (or not - I broke one) on the way down is the next best thing.

Audibles often aren't and don't always fail in a deterministic manner (like the Pro-track's low battery beeps on the ride up).

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People go deaf when they are really scared, rendering audible altimeters useless.

[popsjumper 2]

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Buy an audible altimeter!

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner for the absolute WORST possible answer. And don't come back with "I was j/k".

You don't j/k with youngsters like that...ever.



edited to add my response to include hukturn also.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239