Skyrose7 0 #51 October 25, 2002 Michele, That is an awesome story-thanks for sharing your experience & putting it all so eloquently. I am not graced with writing talent. Glad you decided to keep workin at it. Lord knows I need some work as well.blue skies ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP. MaryRose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #52 October 25, 2002 QuoteDon't sweat it about not being able to land on your feet. I had the same problem, and for some reason, I think it's quite common for women. I get a nice surf out of my Sabre 2 170 now and usually land on my feet (I still have some mishaps). But, it wasn't until I hit about 120 jumps that I started to do it consistently. I. too, had trouble landing til about 90ish jumps.... Another great tale, Michele...congrats and welcome back to the sky! Keep at it, it does get easier...especially jumping your own gear consistently... I look forward to the next installment! Anne ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #53 October 25, 2002 QuoteDon't sweat it about not being able to land on your feet. I had the same problem, and for some reason, I think it's quite common for women. One of my JMs, Shanna, said that women have trouble judging their landings because, "guys have been telling us this much (holds hands about six inches apart) is a foot for our whole lives." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaHeadDown 0 #54 October 25, 2002 Hey Paul, I think I'm gonna have to agree with Michelle. Feel free to dissagree, that's part of what the forums are for, but taking it up with Jim might prove more beneficial to you since it was his logic that suggested it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #55 October 25, 2002 I think I may have to ask Jim about this because reading Michele's description and measurements simply do not make much sense. She says she has 18 inch risers and needs 21 inch risers. She couldn't even reach the slider when she had 22 inch risers, but with 18 inch risers the slider is in her eyes. And that's only one example. See #4 in her last post. "From my collarbone to my ear, I measure 6.2 inches." Then see #6 "The slider, when stowed, is just above eye level, resting at the bottom of the lines, situated on top of the riser plastic guards." Doesn't sound like the risers are 18 inches does it? Naw, something is definately screwy with this.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheBile 0 #56 October 25, 2002 If you continue to steer your canopy as well as you steered our minds eye with that story then you'll be great. U go girl. Gerb I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #57 October 25, 2002 You should read Michele's accounts of her AFF here i think http://www.dropzone.com/columns/ She has a lovely way of writing, and expressing things that a lot of us feel but can't articulate that well....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #58 October 25, 2002 Morning, Quade... Told ya I didn't understand everything...LOL... Also, want to make a correction...when I yanked the collapse cords on the slider like I've done on the 230, the slider came down in front of my face at eye level. The slider, when I pushed it back up to the top of the risers was prolly about 3 inches above my head. Still not a huge distance, but want to make that correction here. When I didn't yank the cords of jump #2 and 3, it stayed on top of the plastic things which are at the place I described above. And further info: I just measured the risers, and from the bottom of the metal ring at the top, which is covered by the plastic, to the stitching of the risers where the rings start on the bottom, the riser measures 16 inches. If you include the metal rings, it is just about 18 inches. They are also thin, I'm guessing what's known as "mini" risers (to be honest, I didn't ask, and I am comparing memory between the 230's 21 inch risers and the 210's 16?/18 inch risers for thickness, so I could be wrong). Maybe the container has something to do with it. From where the three rings connect on the Infinity I rent to the top of my shoulder is something like 4 inches. The container doesn't fit properly (because it's a rental) and I have noticed that I cannot reach over my head unencumbered because of the shoulder straps. Therefore, there is a loss in the % of range of movement (I dunno, maybe 15-20%?) which shortens my reach as well. So I am not getting the full measurement of my arms above my head (27 inches.). Here's how I am picturing it... From bottom of the 3-ring connection, -4 inches from 18 risers...14 inches left. From shouldr to the point where the line from the top of my head intersects the line going up from my shoulder top is 10 inches....now there's 4 inches left (Don't understand how I would use the range of motion shortening, but I think it factors in here somehow). My hand, from wrist/palm to middle fingertip, measures 7.1 inches. If I take my hand, and place them on top of my ears on either side of my head, that's where the toggles are. That's where my hands are in full flight, and to take up the slack prior to deflection of the canopy, my hands have to move down to my collarbone. That's the start of my flare point....in other words, I have 4-6 inches of slack. And everything gets shorter if you measure not from the 3 ring, but from the stitching over the 3 ring. Of course, I think I'm helping, but I am likely just confusing everyone and everything. What I know for sure was that Jim looked at my risers before I jumped, and he said "Oh, short risers, tell me how it goes during the jumps", and then afterwards, when it was apparent I wasn't finding the bottom of my flare, he told me to get 21 inch risers. We didn't go through the measurements like I did last night and this morning. And as I said, he's seen this canopy, seen me flare to the bottom of my reach in moderate winds (+/- 8 knots) and still not get all the speed bled off...so I'll follow his recommendation. Still curious, though, as to why you think the shortening of the brake lines would solve the problem instead of swapping risers, all my info notwithstanding.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #59 October 25, 2002 hey quade, this might have been answered already, but coming from a small chick with short arms longer risers make a huge difference. You see with shorter arms you can't reach down as far to flare, so by getting longer risers you move the canopy farther away from you giving you 2-3 extra inches, and beleive me this does make a difference on a no wind day when you need every bit of flare out of the canopy. Currently my brake lines are as short as they can go without affecting the canopy in full flight, if I had 18 inch risers I wouldn't be able to finish the flare, how do I know this, because after moving to CO I had to have my brake lines shortened to the point that they are now. I used to jump 18's and had a hell of a time finishing my flare, once I got the 21s it was a non issue.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #60 October 25, 2002 Quote If you continue to steer your canopy as well as you steered our minds eye with that story then you'll be great. .... thank you for the compliment...and NacMac, I appreciate your putting the link there. You compliment me as well. Oh, my ego! (Don't stop! My ego needs all the bolstering it can get...!!!) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TEB6363 0 #61 October 25, 2002 All those measurements and calculations are too much for me to understand now. Simple to say -- GREAT JOB M.......... Once the plane takes off, you're gonna have to land - Might as well jump out!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #62 October 25, 2002 Quote All those measurements and calculations are too much for me to understand now. me too!!! Quote GREAT JOB M... Thanks! Two days later, and I'm still bursting with pride. I actually am begninning to understand some of this stuff...just a little bit, but enough to know that I am teachable, and I can do this... Whhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #63 October 25, 2002 Quote Still curious, though, as to why you think the shortening of the brake lines would solve the problem instead of swapping risers, all my info notwithstanding.... Because you seem to have quite a bit of slack in the brakelines. According to your own accounts, the tail surfaces do not begin to deflect until you've pulled the toggles down about 7 inches. That's a lot of slack. Now, I understand your brakelines are fresh from the factory, but you need to understand what that means. The factory has no idea whatsoever what size risers you (or anybody else) are going to use. Further, the brakelines have two sections; a fixed length section from the tail to the brakestow fingertrap, and a variable length section from the brakestow fingertrap to the fingertrap at the toggle. The fixed length section is determined by the manufacturer based on the opening characteristics they want the canopy to have. You don't mess with that. It -will- change over time and eventually will become so far out of trim that you'll need to replace them. The variable length section is what I'm talking about when I say you could simply have the brakelines shortened. The variable length section is set at the manufacturer based on what they believe might be a good starting point for the average person -- but in no way reflects what any individual ought to use. In other words, they are supposed to be adjusted by the user (or the user's rigger). In all likelyhood, if you jumped them without adjusting them, then they aren't the right length. Yes, I fully understand that you're not reaching the bottom of your control stroke. But you need to understand that riser length isn't the ONLY way to deal with this. If, on the other hand, you had your brakelines shortened so that your control stroke started at about 1 inch and you -still- we're not getting a full control stoke, then, yes, maybe changing the riser length might make some sense. But to me, it doesn't seem cost effective to change the risers first.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #64 October 25, 2002 I am sure many far beyond many of us in terms of experience will help you in your goal. Simple fact is, it seems to take 100+ jumps for most new jumpers to get the 'feel' of thier canopy and be able to land it standing up. With all the great help and advice you will recieve, nothing beats experience - keep jumping and one day you'll try to remember how you even had trouble in the first place. "Heidi comes over, and tells me she's taking the class too. She has 280 jumps, and is trying to downsize because she wants a new container and it needs a smaller main. " Hmm, anyone else read this and go...hmm, yeah....something about a cart and horse being in the wrong order? Oh well, just seemed odd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #65 October 25, 2002 Hi, Quade. So what you are saying is that there are two options, one being the brake line adjustment and one being the riser option. Other than cost, why would it be better to shorten the brake lines first (which becomes permanent after it's cut) and not buy the risers in a longer length as was suggested (which is not necessarily permanent)? Grumpy - Yes, it did seem like carts and horses, but she made the transition to the smaller canopy and was fine with it...and keep in mind that I didn't understand the whole conversation, and may have recounted it incorrectly...and what I liked and respected about that was she was attending the class to be safe about it, and waited until Jim saw her land several times in the old size before trying the new one. Her wingloading went from 1:1 to 1.1:1...a 150 something to a 130 something (Sabre2?) Dunno if I recall that right, though. She also had not ordered the container yet. She was seeing if it was feasible or not for her. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #66 October 25, 2002 QuoteOther than cost, why would it be better to shorten the brake lines first (which becomes permanent after it's cut) and not buy the risers in a longer length as was suggested (which is not necessarily permanent)? Because adjusting the brakelines isn't permanent and, in fact, is something that should be looked at every 200 or so jumps -- to relengthen them. Nobody should have to cut the brakelines to adjust them unless it's a very extreme situation.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #67 October 25, 2002 Quade, let's move this over to pm's, o.k ? I seem to be missing something... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #68 October 25, 2002 QuoteQuade, let's move this over to pm's, o.k ? I seem to be missing something... Well, that's kind of my point and why I think this should be discussed out in the open. Maybe if I can get you to understand it, another person can learn from it as well. Anyway, go back and reread the last post I made on the subject. Tell me if you need me to make a drawing of what I'm describing so that you'll understand it better. No. I'm not upset in anyway with you, just trying to get the points across.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #69 October 25, 2002 Paul, there are other options then just altering the brakes. A combo of both is probally best, let the brakes out and longer risers till it hits the perfect medium. There is a reason that factories ship canopies on certian length risers, and they recommend the same length unless you are on the extremes of the scales. I've had 2 factories question me when I've asked about using different sized risers due to the changes it would make to how the canopy flys. The canopy makers I've spoke to design the toggle stroke to be between point a and point b based on 21 inch risers. RWS questioned my order when I accidently ordered 18's for Jessica since they are such a weird size. Shorter people or people with shorter arms most times need slightly longer risers. If I had 18's there is no way I could shut a canopy down with out running more then I want to. Pulling in 3 inches of brakes might not be possible on all canopies due to the amount of fingertrapped material inside might over lap and bunch up. I know my Cobalt would have been smacking in all the time due to its long stroke and even on my old Spectre I could barely stall it on 21's with the brakes at factory specs, If I had 18's and needed to pull in 3 inches of brakes to get it to the same stall points the canopy would have been in brakes in full flight. Since Michele mentioned she needs to buy risers anyways.. maight as well get the ones that allow for the most flexibility in toggle range.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #70 October 25, 2002 QuoteThere is a reason that factories ship canopies on certian length risers, . . . Canopy companies don't ship risers on canopies. At least not in my experience. Risers come from container manufacturers. Normally, risers should be sized to a container, not to a canopy or brakeline length. QuoteThe canopy makers I've spoke to design the toggle stroke to be between point a and point b based on 21 inch risers. I don't think that's exactly correct. Since the canopy manufacturer has no idea whatsoever what container/riser manufacturer you may be attaching your canopy to, they leave room for adjustment. The brakelines are supposed to be adjusted to the individual set of risers and not simply flown as delivered. QuoteSince Michele mentioned she needs to buy risers anyways.. maight as well get the ones that allow for the most flexibility in toggle range. I'll give you that one, but in the meantime, a simple brakeline length adjustment is called for and may solve the issue without need for new risers. Why do I continue to recommend this? Well, I thought I'd answered this in detail several times, but I'll try again. First and foremost, it's the least expensive option. Yeah, I know I've already said that, but trust me it's a dang good reason. Second, adjusting the brakelines is far more easy for both her and her rigger. Again, trust me, it only takes about five minutes and she shouldn't even need to remove the risers from her rig. Third, it's quicker. Ok I know this sounds a lot like the last one, but by adjusting the brakelines she doesn't need to order anything from anyone and she doesn't need to wait for it to arrive. Fourth, adjusting your brakelines gives her more flexibility to re-adjust them if they're still not quite right. Fifth, adjusting her brakelines gives her a wider range of adjustment. From reading her posts it appears as if her brakelines are maybe 6 inches too long. Changing the risers from 18 inches to 21 inches is only a 3 inch change -- clearly not quite enough. So, I guess what I'm saying is . . . adjust the brakelines first and see if that works. If it's still not enough of an adjustment, then maybe a riser length change is called for, but to me it makes little sense to change the risers if a simple brakeline length adjustment will suffice.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #71 October 25, 2002 This really needs to go to the G&R fourm or PM's... >Canopy companies don't ship risers on canopies. At least not in my experience. Why do demo canopies come on 21's and not 18's or 23's? Why did I get questioned when I ask about non 21/22 inch risers from manufactors? 21/22 is their standard and the ones that the canopy makers use in testing most times. One major maker only offers risers in one size (21). >Normally, risers should be sized to a container From my experiences you can order any size riser to go in any container during tyhe initial order of the rig. Riser length is more then just the reserve container length factors. >Since the canopy manufacturer has no idea whatsoever what container/riser manufacturer you may be attaching your canopy No, but there are default lengths that all ship with by default if you don't specify. >From reading her posts it appears as if her brakelines are maybe 6 inches too long. Look at your brake lines and see if there is 8-10 inches of excess line after you move up the attachment point by 6 inches to finger trap the line back into. If not you have to cut the spectra lines and that defetes part of the adjustment factor built into canopies. On my canopy I have 13.5 inches from the Cateye to the toggle. Moving it up 6 inches means cutting 4 inches from the spectra line. The top finger trap in the lower line has an inside fingertraped line that you have to avoid doubling up on too. On your Spectre do you have 6 inches of movement before the tail moves or is more like 3 inches like most PD canopies? Pull on your breaks 6 inches this weekend to see what moving the fingertrap up 6 inches will do the flight of the canopy. Anything over about 2-3 inches up or 3 inches down I've always been told to get new risers that are longer or shorter to avoid making too short of brake lines or putting the flare point out of control. Ther are two ways to fix things.. long term or short term. Short term the brake adjustment will work, long term the best solution is to get longer risers and make small brake movements. I think Hook or RiggerRob would be able to put this one to rest one way or the other...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #72 October 26, 2002 Quote This really needs to go to the G&R fourm or PM's... I'd move this portion to G&R if I could, but I don't have that ability to do that in this forum. I'd like to keep it in the open because I'm hoping that if we discuss this then others may learn from it. Quote >Canopy companies don't ship risers on canopies. At least not in my experience. Why do demo canopies come on 21's and not 18's or 23's? Ahhh, I was unclear in my understanding of what you were saying then. I guess I missed the part about -DEMO- canopies. However, they DO ship new from the factory without risers. Quote Riser length is more then just the reserve container length factors. Agreed to a point. However, a rig will normally come with risers sized to the container without consideration for anything else. Obviously you can get custom anything. Quote Look at your brake lines and see if there is 8-10 inches of excess line after you move up the attachment point by 6 inches to finger trap the line back into. If not you have to cut the spectra lines and that defetes part of the adjustment factor built into canopies. Not really. If after a couple of hundred jumps you brakelines have shrunken so much that you can not readjust them with whatever slack you have left in the fingertrap -- I'm pretty damn sure it's time to replace them entirely! BTW, I must have at least 9 inches of material left inside my finger trap. I'm certain I could put at least another 3 inches in there if required and if I ever need to pull out 6 inches because of trim issues they're gonna be shot and need to be replaced -- guaranteed. Quote On your Spectre do you have 6 inches of movement before the tail moves or is more like 3 inches like most PD canopies? No. It's more like 1 inch because I had them adjusted! That's the point! MAYBE on your canopy you want/need 3 inches of play because you want/need to do front riser maneuvers on a regular basis -- your option -- nothing wrong with that. I have a different opinion about how a canopy needs to be set up for me. I don't see it as a long-term v. short-term thing -- more like a fine tune v hammer sort of thing. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #73 October 26, 2002 QuoteQuoteThere is a reason that factories ship canopies on certian length risers, . . . Risers come from container manufacturers. Normally, risers should be sized to a container, not to a canopy or brakeline length. Very important point brought up by John Brasher that -must- be considered when talking riser lengths. And one reason that container manufacturers have the risers included with them and not the canopy manufacturers. Think very hard about THIS when considering lengthening the riser from the factory specs that came with the container. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MadQ 0 #74 October 27, 2002 >I need to kick Q's rear for getting such weird colored canopy then selling it to you... 0 Hey, I had $5K to spend! I was in a hurry. It was in stock. Silly Cobalt pilot! -- MadQ Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #75 October 27, 2002 LOL at MadQ..... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
MadQ 0 #74 October 27, 2002 >I need to kick Q's rear for getting such weird colored canopy then selling it to you... 0 Hey, I had $5K to spend! I was in a hurry. It was in stock. Silly Cobalt pilot! -- MadQ Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #75 October 27, 2002 LOL at MadQ..... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
