MadQ 0 #76 October 27, 2002 If I may interject... I happen to know a little bit about Michele's Spectre 210, since I am its previous owner. When I got the canopy, along with all my other my gear (all assembled and ready to jump) the toggles had been attached at precisely the right spot. I could just barely make out the little red lines that mark the correct location for the toggles. The risers were 21". On this particular canopy, the lines beyond the cascade of the brake lines are not of equal length, meaning that the outer two (of the lines beyond the cascade on either one of the brake lines) will deform the tail while the middle one still has some slack in it. Even though it's a big canopy (Michele, be glad you never had to pack it when it was brand new!) it's very responsive, and the slightest amount of input will affect it. I know this because I spent a considerable amount of time figuring out every tiny little detail about it, including how it behaves under just about every imaginable mode of flight. Let me tell you... crosswind landings with brakes stowed and flaring with rear risers really sucks! Shortening the brake lines three inches would deform the tail enough to make a difference, although you probably can't see it while under canopy. This is just an assumption, but I believe it would also cause the canopy rock backwards as the slider comes down during opening. This would be very pronounced if the tail had been rolled more than three or four times while packing. This canopy has a tendency to rock a little on opening anyway, especially with light wing loading. Full flight would also be affected to a degree, mostly while leveling after a turn, but the recovery arc after a front-riser turn or dive would be greatly affected. With shorter brake lines, you'd actually deform the tail of the canopy while giving front riser input. Granted, I doubt Michele won't be doing carving turns for spectular swoop landings any time soon, but this should definetely be considered before shortening the brake lines. ... just my $0.02. -- MadQ Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #77 October 27, 2002 So, if I read you correctly, then on the 18 inch risers she current has attached to the canopy . . . the brakelines are about 3 inches too long and could (probably should) be shortened?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #78 October 27, 2002 Morning, Q.... Quote Let me tell you... crosswind landings with brakes stowed and flaring with rear risers really sucks! (madly scribbling in notebook.....) Quote This canopy has a tendency to rock a little on opening anyway, especially with light wing loading. (More notes in notebook....) Quote Michele won't be doing carving turns for spectular swoop landings any time soon Nah, I'm gonna learn how to swoop next week for sure! ...straight in approaches for me for a long, long time (just in case anyone didn't realize I was joking...) Thanks, MadQ....it's great to get this flight characteristic info from you for this particular canopy. I will tell you, though, that I haven't yet noticed the rocking in the opening...all three were smooth and sweet and not terribly long at all....only had 1/2 a line twist on the first one, but that was because I was a little uneven on tossing, and corrected it as the canopy opened. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #79 October 28, 2002 QuoteThis is just an assumption, but I believe it would also cause the canopy rock backwards as the slider comes down during opening. Except, of course, shortening the brakelines wouldn't have any effect on that . . . think about it. Normally, the section of brakeline from the brakestow to the tail, isn't lengthened or shortened -- only that part below the brakestow fingertrap is adjusted.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MadQ 0 #80 October 28, 2002 No, the brake lines are always the same length, no matter how long the risers. The only thing that changes with different size risers is the distance between the attachment point on the harness and the attachment point for the lines. I don't know what they're called, but the brake lines are routed through those little metal rings on the top ends of the rear risers. Since these rings are always the same distance from line attachment points(allowing for tolerances and difference in design, etc.), riser length does not affect brake line length. "But..." you say... Yes, I was just getting to that. Changing the length of the risers affects the effective control range for the individual jumper. Unfortunately, nature doesn't consult the officially accepted ratios for the lengths of various body parts. This makes it difficult to predict how different risers affect an individual. A person with longer arms might actually want shorter risers to avoid stalling before touching down. Ironically, it makes sense for shorter people to have longer risers, in order to increase the effective control range. And your assignment for today... figure out the proper riser length for the average female orangutan. BTW... now that I think about it, the canopy most liked had a tendency to rock on openening because I was probably pulling while still having forward momentum from the track. Also, for some reason or another I used to roll the snot out of the tail. Probably a bad habit from those Skymasters and Mantas. *shudder!* -- MadQ Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #81 October 28, 2002 QuoteSince these rings are always the same distance from line attachment points(allowing for tolerances and difference in design, etc.), riser length does not affect brake line length. "But..." you say... Yes, I was just getting to that. Changing the length of the risers affects the effective control range for the individual jumper. As would adjusting the length of the brakelines. The main differences being, changing the brakeline length is less expensive, quicker and allows for a finer adjustment and retuning as the brakelines shrink over time. Brakelines are supposed to be adjusted.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #82 October 28, 2002 >>Yes, I was just getting to that. Changing the length of the risers >> affects the effective control range for the individual jumper. >As would adjusting the length of the brakelines. I think both are necessary to 'trim' a canopy to a particular jumper/canopy/rig combo. The lower brake lines must be long enough unstowed to allow some bow in the brake lines; they must be short enough to allow a full flare (i.e. a stall) when bottomed out. Especially in cases of large canopies (requiring long strokes) and small armed jumpers, it's often necessary to go to longer risers even when the lower brake lines are at an ideal length. In the case of small canopies that require a shorter stroke (and require slider collapse) shorter risers may make more sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #83 October 28, 2002 Morning, Quade.... got this in my e-mail this morning..... ********************** Hello Michele, To a certain extent, the riser length you choose is a matter of personal preference. The risers should definitely be short enough to allow you to reach the toggles comfortably and easily. If you collapse or stow your slider after opening, you will want the risers short enough that you can reach the slider easily, as well. Riser length will also affect the flight characteristics of the canopy, particularly how it responds to toggle inputs such as turning and flaring. An inch or so will not make much difference, but three inches will probably have a noticeable effect. I measured my own arm after reading you e-mail, and found that it measures about 23." I prefer risers around 20"-21" in length. Longer risers feel too long, and 18" risers definitely feel a bit too short for me. I find that many other jumpers have a similar preference, and that 18" risers seem most appropriate for very short jumpers with shorter arms. The size and type of canopy do not seem to affect these preferences to any great degree. If you have used both 18" and 21" risers, and find that you prefer one length to the other, then you can obviosly choose the size you prefer when buying a rig. I wouldn't be surprised if the 18" risers feel a bit too short for you. You may even want to try locating a different set of "loaner" risers if you will be using them for a while. In most cases, shortening the steering lines on a canopy is not recommended . As a general rule of thumb, there should be a noticeable bow in the steering lines when the brakes are released and the toggles are all the way up at full glide. You should have to pull the toggles at least two or three inches before the steering lines become completely tight and the tail starts to be pulled down. On most PD main canopies, the toggles should not be set any shorter than the factory setting. In fact, since the steering lines will gradually shrink as more and more jumps are made on a canopy, you may actually have to lengthen the steering lines every one or two hundred jumps to keep them the correct length. The Spectre may be the only exception to this. Since many people do not lengthen their steering lines occasionally, or they tie the toggles too short to begin with, we designed the Spectre with the steering lines a little longer than usual. In most cases, the canopy will be just fine with the toggles at the factory setting, but some people may prefer to shorten the steering lines slightly, especially on larger Spectres. Short risers will definitely exaggerate the effects of longer steering lines. If you do decide to have your steering lines shortened, please keep the following in mind: first, the steering lines should not be shortened too much. There should still be sufficient slack in the steering lines when the canopy is at full glide, as mentioned above. Even on a larger Spectre, shortening the lines more than two or three inches may be going too far. Second, do not cut the excess steering line off below the toggle. This excess line should be left in place, and can be finger-trapped back into the steering line above the toggle so that the steering lines can be lengthened later if necessary. Third, check the slack in your steering lines occasionally to see if they have shrunk, and have them lengthened if need be. I hope this information is helpful. Please let us know if you have any other questions. Scott Miller Performance Designs, Inc. www.performancedesigns.com ************************ Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #84 October 28, 2002 You gotta' love the folks at PD... Thank him for such a direct professional response from many of us. The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #85 October 28, 2002 QuoteThank him for such a direct professional response from many of us. Yeah, add me to that list. It's good to have this cleared up.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #86 October 28, 2002 Michele -- It's interesting that you've added emphasis the way you have. I read it slightly differently; Quote . . . Since many people do not lengthen their steering lines occasionally, or they tie the toggles too short to begin with, we designed the Spectre with the steering lines a little longer than usual. In most cases, the canopy will be just fine with the toggles at the factory setting, but some people may prefer to shorten the steering lines slightly, especially on larger Spectres. . . . To me . . . this only confirms what I've been saying all along. What was your interpretation? BTW, ever see the movie "The Point"? There's a great line in it from a character called "The Rock Man". The Rock Man said, "You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear." The meaning being you have to be careful in interpreting the words of others.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #87 October 29, 2002 And as long as we're going to start flinging written references into this . . . Check out; THIS.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #88 October 30, 2002 Additionally, you might want to check out; THIS. You'll want to scroll down to nearly the bottom of the page and read the section under the heading, "Mechanical problems". Ironically, this comes from the exact text Jim Slaton uses for for his classes at Perris, "The Book of Canopy Control by Bryan Burke". So, um . . . I'm not really sure what to make of all this. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MadQ 0 #89 October 30, 2002 Quote"You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear." "You cannot argue someone out of something he wasn't argued into the begin with." (Karl Sagan) -- MadQ Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 35 #90 October 30, 2002 Oh, I LOVE Scott Miller, he's the poop! That's a man who knows what he's talking about. Besides working at PD and being one of their test jumpers, he also runs the canopy school in Deland. Listen to him, you'll learn a ton!She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #91 October 30, 2002 Hi, 'Mama and MadQ.... QuoteBesides working at PD and being one of their test jumpers, he also runs the canopy school in Deland. Listen to him, you'll learn a ton! Yeah, I suspect I will. His response was not only rapid, but complete, and detailed...and very specific to my question. Also found this waiting for me in my e-mail this morning, from "my" rigger...who was also one of my former JM's... ************* Hey Michelle, Glad to hear you are getting comfortable with your parachute and landing. The reason I have the 18 inch risers is that they are too short for me or most people I know so they are extras. I would suggest getting a longer pair and trying that. Your brake lines will shrink 3 to 5 inches over time. to install new risers on your canopy is about 15 dollars. If you need the lines shortened I would just do them for you. As long as you don't go back and forth (lengthing and shortening). Hope to see you soon. [additional personal communication edited out] Vinny Palmieri ******************* What has been really interesting throughout this last week is the amount of information I have gathered. Lots of stimulating (!!!) questions were asked, which made me assess and analyze, instead of just accepting advice. And what else I have learned from this is that I am beginning to develop a core base of knowledge (o.k., right now that "core base" could easily fit on the head of a pin with room to spare), and I am beginning to have some confidence in developing my own opinion. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
