6Speed 0 #76 December 18, 2002 Ohh yeah, and I saw somewhere up there in the posts someone mentioned the Bible stating the age of the earth as 6000 years old. The earths age is listed no where in the Bible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mindcake 0 #77 December 18, 2002 Religion is too much like Las Vegas. "Oh, you picked the wrong God, sorry, it's Buda, Allah etc." I prefer to take a larger view. Hey, give thanks and praise , whoever you are, wherever you are, what ever you are. Even if it is evolution we should be thankful for being here. Jim "channeling Keith Richards" Don´t belive the hype Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
6Speed 0 #78 December 18, 2002 QuoteI think that falls in line with "you can torture statistics until they say anything." Same thing goes for the Bible. You have to look for what you want in it; it's easy to find just about anything if you look hard enough. That doesn't explain how a man many thousands of years ago, who could have no concept of how the earth formed, (and who probably thought the earth was flat), could have written a book that agrees with scientific theories of today. Sure Genesis doesn't explain DNA, RNA, atoms, etc. But I think thats a given. It had to be written in a way that people of that time could understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #79 December 18, 2002 >First off, Genesis completely agrees with current scientific data and >theory on the formation of the earth. I'd say you can interpret it so that it sorta agrees, but it's far from being in perfect agreement. It was not meant as a science primer; it was meant as a spiritual guide. Expecting it to be scientifically correct is, I think, like expecting the skydiving scenes in movies to be perfectly accurate. >In Genesis the water of the newly formed earth is said to > be "gathered together" in one place, and dry land appears in > another. All geological evidence we have indicates that this actually > happened. There was one huge ocean, and one supercontinent > named Rodonia (Pangea came later). Early on, it's generally accepted that the earth was way too hot for any liquid water to exist - it had to cool through radiation until the surface temp dropped below the boiling point of water. >In Genesis we are told the first living thing was grass. . . .Science > tells us that these were the first plants on earth as well. It's generally accepted that archaea, simple single celled prokaryotes that can live in very extreme environments (such as existed on early earth) were the first life. Eukaryotes came next (bacteria with organelles) then more complex muti-celled cooperative organisms, then finally complex organisms like fungus. Fungus was a relative latecomer to the scene - for about half the period of life on earth, we have found only prokaryotic fossils. >The Bible's sequence of animal creation starting in verse 20 also > corresponds remarkably with the evidence seen in the fossil record. I would agree here. Interesting to see the bible used to promote evolution. >Ok, so lets say that just by chance the universe came to be, and just > by chance the earth came to be. Mathmatically the odds of our earth > forming by chance alone is 1 in 150,000,000,000,000,000. That sounds about right. There are ~1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe (10^21.) If one in 100 stellar system contains at least one planet, and 1 in 100 of those planets is at all earth-like, and the odds of life forming on an earth-like planet are what you indicate above, then something like 150 planets in the universe evolved life. We're one of them. Another way to approach this is the famous Drake Equation, that attempts to quantify how likely life is elsewhere in the universe. >This number only includes 11 factors necessary to support life. Once life begins, evolution starts. That provides the next driving force behind the evolution of complex structures like DNA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #80 December 18, 2002 >If you agree that their is "Work" present before the "creation" then >ther must be a "power" present before said creation. Yep. That's god, to me. The first singularity, Planck's constant, broken symmetry - those forces and processes created the universe and set all this other stuff in motion. God _is_ physics; he doesn't break the rules of the universe to turn people into pillars of salt because he's pissed off. >work was done. Wheter many random combinations took place > before the "right one" came about is really irrelevant to the fact that > it had to of happend and it could not have happend without > the "power" I refer to. I agree. It is the same power that creates unique and perfect snowflakes, patterns of erosion on beaches, and amazing shapes of clouds. It's the same power that allows the sun to burn hydrogen to helium for billions of years and thus gives us energy to live here. Just because we understand those processes better now doesn't mean they're any less impressive. >If the building blocks exist because of "random chance" (I guess you > mean in a parallel universe, there is no such thing) than someone > (let's just say someone okay) has to put those block together > (Prime mover?) Well, not someone. Who creates snowflakes? Who makes tornadoes? Who makes the sun rise and set? A meaningless question - they do so because all things in this universe obey the laws of physics. They obey a force, not a someone. Not saying 'someone' is important to the issue, I think. It clouds things. >Either way, there is no way to explain what is without including a > power that makes it so or another "random chance" where things > are not. That's right, I think. Chaos causes random chance to sometimes take one path, sometimes take another. Life might have never evolved here, but it did. >As you have already mentioned Billvon, we see less magic now then > we did when we did not KNOW the laws of physics. However, all the > laws that we HAVE discovered point to a power beyond what already > is, and what already was and what ever will be. I think we will slowly whittle away the remaining questions about the origins of the universe, but will never answer some very basic questions about its origin. To me, that's where god lies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker 0 #81 December 18, 2002 Quote*** Same thing goes for the Bible. You have to look for what you want in it; it's easy to find just about anything if you look hard enough. The trick is NOT to look for what you want in the Bible. Does anyone know the reason the Bible is called a double edged sword? Because it convicts. It tells you things you might not want to hear. The Bible is a divine, holy, COMMAND, not whatever you want it to be. God has told us how He wants us to live our lives, but He does give us a choice. That's what makes salvation so wonderful. Those that choose to live their lives according to the Bible will live forever in Heaven, those who do not will go to Hell. Jesus makes that clear in Revelation. YES, that is how the world will end, point blank. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe out of the Bible. Either believe all of it, or believe none of it. If you are hot, God is happy. If you are cold, God is unhappy, but at least there is hope. If you are lukewarm, God will spit you out of His mouth. (Check out Jesus' letter to the church of Laodicea in Revelation ch. 3) Not only that, the original Greek word used meant vomit, not just spit. It is a violent outpouring. Do not belittle what God has created. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #82 December 18, 2002 QuoteDo not belittle what God has created. And do not twist a doctrine of love into a doctrine of hate. God is only vengeful when the politics of the time demand it. If you believe the Christian doctrine, you know that god came to earth to tell us to love him and one another. Someone quoted Matthew. For me, that is the alpha and the omega. Anything else is cheesy politics and manipulation of the masses in god's name. _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #83 December 18, 2002 QuoteAnd that "work" is the result of power over time. That power is the mystery, the god, the "Higher power"... Whatever you may call it. "It" exists. Are you trying to prove that god exists based on the entropy law of thermodynamics? This is flawed. Entropy can be reversed with the addition of energy, generally this occurs in living things through a process we call "eating". As long as the universe as a whole has increased entropy, we are still OK. Live evolves just fine, more complex organisms evolve, and the universe still becomes more disordered as a result based on the increased disorder that comes from "eating". Just look at the dishes piled up in your sink. _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #84 December 18, 2002 I figure, like most of the big questions, I'll get the answer after I die, or not. An interesting take on this that I read, and discussed with a fervent creationist, was that DNA does not allow for evolution. It does allow for mutation, but mutation cannot become part of the genetic code. Any human DNA apparently has the data for that individual to have any human physical trait. So if I move my people natural selection of the already possessed genetic characteristics will take place, and our appearance will change over time, but that's selection, not evolution. I think the answer to whether we evolved from another form of life would be in our genetic code, I don't think the fossil record is all that convincing. The religion stuff just keeps me honest, married, and good to my fellow man. If I die and just get cold, it will still have been worth it. Billvon, you're enfuego today! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #85 December 18, 2002 QuoteYep. That's god, to me. The first singularity, Planck's constant, broken symmetry - those forces and processes created the universe and set all this other stuff in motion. God _is_ physics; he doesn't break the rules of the universe... Bill, I think you've presented the most coherent and informed arguments in this debate. You've shown how it is possible to integrate faith and belief in god with what we know so far as science. Steven Hawkins says that the singularities and broken symmetries are only illusions created because we live in a 3-dimensional slice of a multi-dimensional universe (my amateur interpretation, anyway). The "Big Bang" is only our space becoming tangental to a border of hyperspace. He also concludes that there is nothing outside the universe, that it has always existed, and therefore there is no supreme being who created it, or lives outside it. I'm not ready to take this "leap of faith", I think we are slowly discovering the true nature of god and the universe as we study it, and that it will be thousands of years before we even begin to have even an clue of god's true nature, even ideed we ever can. Perhaps there is an ultimate uncertaintly principal that prevents is from knowing this. Metaphorically, we eat the apple and are cast out! _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #86 December 18, 2002 I was going to mention how Prometheus brought fire down to man from the gods, but everyone knows thats a myth, huh? Once people understand something, the old simplistic explanation is regarded as a myth. The whole "sun pulled across the sky by chariots" is probably passe also. How about "the moon being eaten by wolves" to explain a quarter moon each month? Simple answers to complex questions. What don't we understand today? Oh, yeah... "how did the universe start?" What would be a good, simple answer? Hmm... "God did it" Source of this answer? The writings of people whose daily life consisted of bumping a goat on the butt with a stick. Science at its best. All the texts at least agree that bad stuff is all the women's fault. Pandora's box had all the bad stuff in it. Eve ate the apple. These darned women are definitely a common theme here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #87 December 18, 2002 I am totally with you at the beggining. something started us...that would be "god" I think religion is mans kind of way to have a purpose. evolution (heart and soul)... the reason why there are still apes is because evolution is not a ladder. its a bush or tree. if you look into anthropology there is several routs where we came from. austiopithicus aferensus (sp?) is the "ape" that we evolved from. it branched into many species from austiopithicus robustus to homo erectus which then morphed into cromagnon. I think that we definately evolved from the same being as apes, but we definately did not come from an ape. look at the canary islands for a good source of evolution. search darwin and religion. call me if you really want to have a deep talk about it.. I love that shit! -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #88 December 19, 2002 QuoteOhh yeah, and I saw somewhere up there in the posts someone mentioned the Bible stating the age of the earth as 6000 years old. The earths age is listed no where in the Bible. Thats true. But some guy (sorry for the very specific reference) back calculated when the earth was formed from references in the Bible. It was something likt 10 Oct 4002 BC.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #89 December 19, 2002 I note that everyone here (the religious ones) has assumed that the Christian God is the God that started everything off. We have "Christianity". Then we have Islam and Judaism. Then there is Hinduism, Buddaism, Confucianism, Shinto. Thats just a fraction of the "modern" religions. Go back to the ancient Greeks and Romans. Zeus, Thor et al. What about the Aztecs? The Ameriacan Indians, the Australian Aborigines? Just a small sample. All of them have different ideas about everything. And inside each religion we have a bunch of different sects. Christianity -> Catholics, Protestants, Adventists, Baptists, Lutherans... The list goes on and on. Invoke Occum's Razor. None of them exist. . That said, I don't particularly care what you believe in. Just as long as you don't try to proselytise, I'm happy. I won't try to convert you. We'll argue and debate (as we are here), but unless something hugely life changing happens, each of us is going to stay as we are.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #90 December 19, 2002 Quote Invoke Occum's Razor. None of them exist. Now my chair is getting a wet spot! _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #91 December 19, 2002 QuoteThats true. But some guy (sorry for the very specific reference) back calculated when the earth was formed from references in the Bible. It was something likt 10 Oct 4002 BC. That would be James Ussher, who 1640 calculated the year of the formation of the Earth to be 4004 BC (yeah, I had to look it up). Contrary to popular belief, he did not pick a specific day. I personally found it amazing that he thought that he was accurate enough to pick a specific year. Ussher did the calculations based almost entirely on the genealogies of the Bible, and he used the modern historic record (death of Christ onwards, mostly) to fill in the blanks. His calculations have been widely discounted, even by young-earth creationists. The scientific community's current best estimate 4.5 +/- 0.1 billion years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #92 December 19, 2002 QuoteQuoteI think that falls in line with "you can torture statistics until they say anything." Same thing goes for the Bible. You have to look for what you want in it; it's easy to find just about anything if you look hard enough. That doesn't explain how a man many thousands of years ago, who could have no concept of how the earth formed, (and who probably thought the earth was flat), could have written a book that agrees with scientific theories of today. Sure Genesis doesn't explain DNA, RNA, atoms, etc. But I think thats a given. It had to be written in a way that people of that time could understand. its actually not difficult to interpret most mythical origins with modern science. Hindu texts have involved creation themes that have similarities to chaos theories as well.. but there isnt much point in setting up a choice between these. One is a written belief system that does not change. The other is an ever changing idea based on scientific methods of inquiry. there isnt a choice between 'god' or 'science' here as they are not mutually exclusive. Science continually asks how? Religion attempts to tell you why.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #93 December 19, 2002 QuoteAs far as to God, Allah, Jesus, the virgin Mary, Joseph, Buddha, Thor, Iemanja, and everything else is concerned? Those are manifestations. If God isn't a trickster, then why build up thought tricks to try to send his beloved creations to hell, simply because they lived kind lives outside of a particular framework? God said beware of false prophets to test our faith. That is why. I think.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #94 December 19, 2002 I think if you are saved you are "a christian".. The rest as far as knowing "the word/bible" is for your own benefit. All the answers are suppose to be in the bible. That is one thing "now that I have faith" that has me so excited. QuoteMy ultimate authority is Jesus...the Bible is just a way to know Him. Well put.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #95 December 19, 2002 We also have to remember that 7 days to God may have been MILLIONS of years. Our day today might not be HIS day.. Food for thought.. You have to expand your reasoning.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #96 December 19, 2002 Quote Religion is too much like Las Vegas Maybe so.. I am not "religious" I am a person of faith. I am saved. I won't sit in the steriotype. Understand? I don't even goto church regurlarly.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #97 December 19, 2002 NB. Our "day" is not a fixed unit of measurement, the notion of a "day" itself is a measuement of the appearance of the sun, and due to various small factors building up over time is not a constant as you and I perceive it to be. Currently the day is approx 86400 seconds--seconds are a fixed unit of time--but every year or two (based on observation, didn't happen last year) a leap second is inserted into a day to account for irregularity in the earth's rotation. Due to the action of the moon on the Earth's tides, the earth's rotation is gradually decreasing. The sun also slows the earth's rotation, but to a lesser extent than the moon. Thousands of years ago the earth day was shorter, and sometime in the far off future there will be no more days since the earth will stop rotating (actually, the sun will expand and by the time the earth is no longer rotating the earth will actually be /inside/ the sun....how about that!) Whoever came up with the 7 days thing in the christian holy book skipped out on physics class... NathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #98 December 19, 2002 Quote Whoever came up with the 7 days thing in the christian holy book skipped out on physics class... Nah, the truth is, It took longer for God to create the earth and life than these tings have even existed for now! The author of Genesis had personal contact with God but do you think God was about to tell him: "Oh buddy! Took me forever to get it right!... At least I hope it's right... er." NO! of course not. Instead, he said:"Ah, It was nothin'! Took me a week!... Well, six days... I just kicked back and had a beer on the seventh." Anyway, back to the original question at hand? Creation or Evolution. Certainly nobody could deny that evolution exists could they? If we were created, could evolution be the "How to steps?". Is it not true also, that we as humans have dormant genes, detailing physical traits that we have shed away? Do we not still have body parts that we no longer need? (no funny ideas here, I'm refering to apendix, or tail-bone) My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #99 December 19, 2002 >Either believe all of it, or believe none of it. So you believe that you must be a virgin when you marry, and your husband must be the same race as you? And that if you're a soldier, it's OK to rape a conquered woman as long as you take her and make her your wife later? You really believe that men may not shave their faces? That a man with a blemish on his face cannot be a priest? If not, you're picking and choosing what to believe. Most people realize that the bible was written for a different culture and a different time, and it was written by fallible humans. By your definition above, no one can believe the bible since it even contradicts _itself_ in places. (How did Judas die, for example?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #100 December 19, 2002 QuoteMost people realize that the bible was written for a different culture and a different time, Also, what version of the Bible do the Christians here believe? There are several to choose from...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
