wmw999 2,155 #1 January 10, 2003 [wax-on philosophical] Sometimes we seem to get all caught up in the "one objective truth" thing. And there might be a single objectively true answer to every question, but most questions are so complex that we can't really get there from where we are. [wax-off philosophical] WTF is she talking about??? I see the ACLU thread; the cops-stopping-families thread, the religion thread, the Clinton.vs.Bush threads, feminism threads, and see so many people using a filter to only use the information they like. They might see the other information, but they don't necessarily use it. We all have to do that. I sure do. The problem comes when you decide that your filter is applicable for everyone else. Then you quit learning. If you limit your world to what your information filter can predict, then it's a pretty small one, and you can't expect others to share it. That's life. Disagree, and use the information, or accept that your world has just gotten smaller. Now I'll STFU. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 January 10, 2003 That's some kinda whacky commie BS and I refuse to listen to any of it!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #3 January 10, 2003 Quote That's life. Disagree, and use the information, or accept that your world has just gotten smaller. kewel rant wendy! but wise words.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #4 January 10, 2003 Right on. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #5 January 10, 2003 That's why I feel fortunate that I believe in God. I'll see and experience things and make my best effort to do what I think and believe is "right", but judgement is left for the reckoning that will occur when I die. I don't mean to sound like a moral relativist, because I do think we should not tolerate the biggies, like child molestation, rape and murder. But stuff that does not intrude into others lives, like homosexuality and recreational drug use, while I choose not to engage in, is better left for the Authority At The End Of Our lives to decide was right or wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #6 January 10, 2003 Atta girl... the world is one big ugly mess, if you want it to be beautiful, change what you see, how you see it and the quantity. If you want to CHANGE it... take it all in and do your best to affect the world around you. If the entire world would get off their proverbial butt and do something positive, i just bet it would be a better place... question is how far do we impose our ideas on anothers?Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #7 January 10, 2003 Quote I see the ACLU thread; the cops-stopping-families thread, the religion thread, the Clinton.vs.Bush threads, feminism threads I'm proud to say i haven't looked at any of those threads. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #8 January 10, 2003 Quote Quote I see the ACLU thread; the cops-stopping-families thread, the religion thread, the Clinton.vs.Bush threads, feminism threads I'm proud to say i haven't looked at any of those threads. lol uh oh, ive looked at all them, but then i'm an information junkie...moe is betta'____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #9 January 10, 2003 Don't remember who said it, but it's some famous dead guy: "No one is so blind as he who will not see." I take this to mean that everyone who does not agree with me is an idiot, but some idiots say that people like me are the ones who refuse to see. I say they are blind. ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skeletor 0 #10 January 11, 2003 QuoteThat's why I feel fortunate that I believe in God. Funny, it's why I feel fortunate I don't believe in god. I can think for myself and make my own decisions.... rich. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #11 January 11, 2003 Quote ...stuff that does not intrude into others lives... and recreational drug use ... Bear in mind, I agree with the premise of the privacy issue you are citing. There is no inherent harm, or intent. Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Recreational drug use does intrude into other peoples lives, at great cost too. Very few people in the world, IMO, can pick something up, and put it down again without giving it a seconds thought. If that were true in my case, and many others I bet, then I would not place many things secondary to skydiving. That issue aside, the "recreational" meth user doesn't know about the dozen's of houses that literally explode from the manufacture of the drug. That affects families, neighborhoods, and down the line. It happens so often, it is a mainstay joke in Southern California, about any house fire. I've seen plenty from the air myself and the conversation on the way to altitude always chimes this fact. People use mind altering substances because of the affect they have. At some point though, for many, a line gets crossed and dependency becomes a very real issue. Alcohol is the grand-daddy of them all. It's no different with drugs. By legalizing them, you may be able to enjoy a joint every now and then, but your neighbor may not, and may grow so dependent that he loses his/her family, or throws their finances into a spin, loses a job, collects unemployment. So who doesn't that touch or intrude upon? I'm not going to give you the "terrorism" speech, though it is a valid point. Instead, think of 11 year old in LA that get's hazed into his gang, initiated by taking a beating, and is tasked with ensuring that the gangs number 1 fund raiser keeps moving. That's all those recreational drugs. That equals the stray bullets, the stolen cars (which equal parts which equal funds to buy more drugs, and guns), the burnt houses, the cop chases, the graffiti tags...on and on. When you hear that distant police siren at night, there's a better than 1-in-4 chance he's chasing a drunk driver, better than 1-in-10 was involved in a some kind of accident. These things are real, and they do, in fact, touch every one of us. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #12 January 11, 2003 and as has been said many times before "you cant legislate morality" or better still "your freedom is more important than my safety" the inability of sheep to cope with life and its addictions should in no way prohibit the tigers from doing as they please with themselves and their lives.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #13 January 11, 2003 Quoteand as has been said many times before "you cant legislate morality" or better still "your freedom is more important than my safety" the inability of sheep to cope with life and its addictions should in no way prohibit the tigers from doing as they please with themselves and their lives. Overall, I don't dispute that in any way. The problem occurs when the "sheep" that can't cope end up affecting the "tigers". That's where the reverse effect takes hold. Our freedoms, guaranteed by the constitution, does not accommodate our pursuit of happiness at the expense of someone else. It's like saying driving while intoxicated is okay until you get in an accident, cause property damage or kill someone. Instead, they write some tough ass laws against driving while drunk. They didn't outlaw drinking. In essence, the tigers get to do what they want, until they don't account for their action, and kill a sheep or another tiger in the process. As much as I want to generalize it, I can't. Of course, on this subject, I am not objective. I've been hit by a drunk driver, and been at many "wrong places at wrong times" (and we'll leave it at that) on other issues that supposedly don't intrude on other people's lives.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #14 January 11, 2003 No B S Hi Wendy! Conway 1130 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #15 January 11, 2003 absolutely! the key is holding the individuals responsible for their actions irregardless of the mental state or toxicology levels.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #16 January 11, 2003 Quoteabsolutely! the key is holding the individuals responsible for their actions irregardless of the mental state or toxicology levels. In a perfect world where everyone grew, or processed their favorite-substance-of-choice in-house, the discussion would end there. However, when JoeSchmo, recreational *insert drug name here* user picks up a "package" the damage trail has already occured before anyone has taken a "taste" per se. Pick a substance: Marijuana: Natural, what's to worry? The worst that could happen is that you misdial the number to Pizza Hut while dropping the phone right? Wrong. The cop who is also a father/mother who tried to stop a shipment got shot in the line of duty or was hit by a suspect and is now on permanent disability. Cocaine: Zing baby...it makes you happy and wow! What's wrong with that? (ask Richard Pryor) Unfortunatly, the Coast Guard has thousands of men putting their lives on the line trying to stop smugglers. That touches us. We won't even talk about crack. Heroine: Pick a scenario...it's happened in real life. The list goes on. The people it affects before you even get to catch a buzz is easy to ignore, until your friend gets pricked by a needle, or gets shot, or gets robbed... No, illicit drugs are not a "right" to do in the house. You may get your buzz, but he wreckage caused during shipment runs very deep, and unfortunately, all too siliently.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #17 January 11, 2003 ah but the problem there is with the enforcement of laws soley designed to protect us from ourselves. I feel for the officers (of all types) who many have been harmed doing their jobs. (who could possiblly be related to me) however the law is at fault for their injuries, not the end users. The users never gave the order to search that car, or put the cop that criminalizes otherwise law abiding citizens. how about we hold the law makers responsible for all the crimes inadvertantly commited because they refuse to trust citizens to make decisions on their own..same logic.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,155 #18 January 11, 2003 The same argument about damage caused in getting something here could be made for using only organically-grown coffee from fair-price markets and the like. Only that's a tree-hugger's argument. I've seen more lives wasted by alcohol than by illegal drugs. Our decision as a government to sanction them is just that, a decision. Not that I'm in favor of going out and shooting up; it's damaging. So is snorting, and pot makes a lot of people think about little besides pot. (of course, so does skydiving Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #19 January 11, 2003 Fair enough...now take another level, and as a skydiver, I know you can relate to this: Base all I'm describing using the feeling and sensation you had from your first jump as a boilerplate. JoSchmo lives in utopia, where grass is legal, so's coke, LSD and X. JoSchmo has a decent life, makes a good living, and has a nice family. JoSchmo is a normal enough chap, he strives to provide for his family, and progress his career, and own self-worth. One day while at a friends house JoSchmo tries X for the first time. He really, really likes that feeling. It's as though a hole had been filled, a hole in his life that he didn't know he had. He goes home to the family and job and comes down. He feels terrible! It's worse than any hangover he ever had, and his back is sore too. All he can initially think about is how to get that feeling back. He begins to use X fairly regularly. He can buy it at the pharmacy no problem. He notices there are warnings on the label, but hey, a pill's a pill right? If one made him feel good, two must be fantastic! This obsession isn't shared with anyone, they might not understand. Fast forward four weeks or so. JoSchmo has been using a lot of X and though he's struggling at work, he managing semi-okay at his job. His family is a little worried, seeing JoSchmo in many mood swings, super happy and content one moment, nearly crying from rage and pain the next. His family cannot see what is now growing into a denial of self-hatred and fear of living life without X. His drinking and smoking increase to help ease the pain he's feeling. Fast forward another four weeks or so. JoSchmo's wife and kids are staying with her parents because the bank is about to foreclose because JoSchmo missed a mortgage payment and has lost his job. He doesn't understand what's wrong with his wife, how could she leave him when he needs her so? How could she do that to him? And his former employers, don't they know who he is? They'll be back...the call never comes. JoSchmo's drinking is solely to get him to pass out so he doesn't have to feel the pains from coming off X. JoSchmo is running out of money to buy more X and a recent trip to the hospital confirmed that he is causing serious damage to his spinal column and nervous system and is endangering his own life. His wife has filed for divorce and has a restraining order against him because he came over attempting to borrow or steal money from his inlaws so he could get that feeling back. Remember that feeling he had at his friend's house? He thinks briefly that he never found that feeling again, but he tries to capture it anyway he can. JoSchmo needs a fifth of vodka and a few pills to fall asleep, just to get sleep every four or five days. Finally out of money, out of home, JoSchmo finds himself on the streets of utopia. "How could this happen to me?" he asks. Cringing from not being able to get hgh, and feeling some delirium tremens from alcoholic withdrawls he is determined to find money to get that feeling again. He wanders into a quiet neighborhood and breaks into a house. There he finds some jewelry to pawn and a small pistol. He pawns the jewels and goes to the pharmacy and liquor store. He stays running for a few days, but soon is out again and aching at what to do. He knows that everything is wrong, but he can't escape the urge to chase that feeling. He decides to simply rob the liquor store. Unfortunately, the store clerk tries to stop him and the gun goes off. The store clerk was somebody's son, mother, father, daughter, brother or sister and is now laying in pool of blood next to a light register tray. JoSchmo gathers a couple hundred dollars and is running again. The utopian police, not used to this type of incident, because everyone respects everyone elses privacy, and society is based on accountability, service and unity, begin to look for JoSchmo. They find him in an alley. JoSchmo realizes the gig is up for him, but he is afraid to face the music. He decides to attempt to evade .... You can finish the story as you wish, regardless of outcome, who here thinks that these legal substances were perfectly harmless to all involved? Somewhere, this happened, or something like it happened. And in this one-of-thousand-real-stories, JoSchmo ended up either in jail, the nut-house, found a path to recovery, or is dead. Bear in mind, that JoSchmo's motives were never meant to be of ill intent. What do you think happened? Quoteah but the problem there is with the enforcement of laws soley designed to protect us from ourselves In many ways you're correct, when it comes to illicit drugs, sorry dude, it's not the same as a "right" to choose how/whom one might have sex.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #20 January 11, 2003 up until the point he broke into the house and robbed a store there was no problem at all. the story is sad (pathetic might be a better word) however 'social darwinism' would rather quickly weed out those who could not cope. Would there be personal carnage involved? absolutely? many individuals and the families that depend on them would suffer a trama, however that is not societies responsibility, that is the pervue of the individual and their family. strong support structures and individuals will survive the most tramatic of events and still prosper, the less able will simply vanish beneath the waves.. you may blame the drugs for his actions and they are definately a contributing factor, however the individual is (or should be at least) responsible for themselves and their families, putting that burden on society only equals oppression for those able to function without such draconian controls.. actually the 'uptopian police' would probably be more responsive to such occurances. With personal responsibility as the primary controlling force i believe that more individuals would push the evelopes and be punished until they learned the limits, each generation having its group of 'renegades' needing to see how far they can go.. obviously in a society where personal responsibility is a priorty, education would have to be rather high as well. no more coddling to the lowest common denominator to determine what is socially acceptable. Turn socialism on its head. "From each according to thier means, to each according to their abilities.." "one rule for lion and lamb is oppression" W.Blake.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #21 January 11, 2003 Quote you may blame the drugs for his actions and they are definately a contributing factor, however the individual is (or should be at least) responsible for themselves and their families I never attempted to indicate otherwise regarding responsibility. And I do not blame the drug, it was the individual. What I was trying to convey was that "drug" use in the privacy of your home is not "innocent" or without consequence, because of the actions we take as individuals, and those actions do affect other people, and if negatively, then it violates those person's rights to life liberty and happines. That's my point. If one's happiness is dependent on a mind altering substance, there is a problem. Think of this: Alcoholic or not, what happens to nine out of ten men who drink tequila? Super-asshole-thinks-he-has-mystical-kung-fu powers! It's not a problem until he acts on those instints which are now hindered...(and usually provide for an entertaining story afterward). Quote Turn socialism on its head. "From each according to thier means, to each according to their abilities.." I'm all for that it is socialism that has brought us Needle Park, and organized, fully subsidized health systems that don't work. Yet our abilities also mean accountability. Our society is built on those fundamental judao/christian beliefs of "help your fellow man" ... i.e. Don't give a man a fish, teach to him to fish...I don't know if that makes sense the way I want it too. Why do you or I jump with lo-timer jumpers? It's not an obligation, it is a desire to pass on experience and a lot of fun memories. Quote "one rule for lion and lamb is oppression" W.Blake. I could be wrong, but if I understand that quote correctly, it doesn't support your position (or I'm confused ) I'm all for personal freedoms, personal privacy, etc. If someone wants to burn cigarettes on their ass in their house, great. In today's environment, where drugs are illegal though, and seeing what the worst of them does to fundamentally good people, private or not...I think there more to it than genes or Darwin. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #22 January 11, 2003 Life ain't easy brother, but when someone else tells us what we can do--alcohol, pot. coke, cigarettes, caffine (where do we draw the line) because they feel they can judge what we can handle better than we can judge for ourselves then life itself becomes something less than many would would settle for. If everyone would except responsibility for their own actions and stop trying to blame someone or something else we would have quite a place wouldn't we. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #23 January 11, 2003 Wow. You guys have gotten really, really serious about stuff since the weather changed. Only the folks that have spent time with me know that I'm a happy-go-lucky kind of guy almost every minute of every day. I'm finding that when I express an opinion or share an experience it's a challenge for many of you to "prove me wrong" or outweigh my experience with what you think is more valid, or stronger experience. Tens of thousands of people use cocaine, meth, marijuana, opium products, alcohol, etc with no problems. A smaller number jumps out of planes, as an example. Both behaviours ruin lives on occasion. It's the price of freedom, some people can't handle it. Ach. I dropped my guard and got sucked in to two political threads. Good luck, serious ones, don't worry, be happy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #24 January 11, 2003 yer right about buying drugs can often mean giving $ to violent assholes. That's why we should be allowed to grow our own! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #25 January 11, 2003 QuoteAch. I dropped my guard and got sucked in to two political threads. Good luck, serious ones, don't worry, be happy Nicely put. ...(Tim bows down to simple wisdom)........My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
