Isn't killing always killing?

[skymama 35]

Ok, I don't usually enter into political conversations on here, but I saw something this morning that has me perplexed. I was behind a car that has a "Choose life" license plate issued by the state for anti-abortion. Also on the back of the car was a sticker made up to look like a license that said "United States terrorist hunter permit". Now, why is it ok for this person to take the life of a terrorist, but not the life of a fetus? Even though the terrorist is a bad person and it could be argued that he deserves to be killed, it's still taking a human life to me, the same thing that anti-abortionists are against. It seems a little hypocritical to me I guess.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm pro-choice and I'm also pro-death penalty for heinous crimes. I'm not saying I'm pro-abortion, because it really would weigh heavily on me if that was a conclusion I would have to come to for my daughter or myself. But, I still want to know that I have that choice. Today is the 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, and on the news this morning they were talking about how the law could be overturned because Bush is in office and now he has a republican congress to back up his views. This really distresses me since I have a 14 year old daughter. I want her to have the choice too as she matures.

Back to my original question: Isn't killing always killing, no matter what the circumstances are?

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Vallerina 2]

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Back to my original question: Isn't killing always killing, no matter what the circumstances are?

Yeah, which is why I never understood bombing abortion clinics, especially since people (like at Planned Parenthood) may be there for something not related to abortions at all...like a pap smear or pregnancy test.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[DYEVOUT 0]

A terrorist has made a conscious decision to be what he is, and accept the consequences - a fetus hasn't had that choice.

Not my area of expertise, just an observation.

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[wmw999 2,122]

Killing is always killing, and it's also always a choice. Even if you're in a self-defense situation, you can choose not to. Even if you're defending your kids. Jainists in India spend time sweeping in front of them in case there's a bug they might step on and kill.

If you're in a position where you think you have to, then you're probably got some sort of justification. The difference is what each of us considers to be justification.

Of course, I'm pretty much where you are, except that I've had an abortion. It was a choice. Lots of good reasons, but still a choice. In the case of abortion (particularly early abortion), many people don't consider miscarriage to be the same as a death (others do, of course).

Of course, I have Palestinian relatives; it makes it a lot harder to think of middle-easterners as being "them."

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Meathorse 0]

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Isn't killing always killing, no matter what the circumstances are?

I've always thought so, yes. Every time I think about those cases where abortion doctors were killed by radical pro-lifers my brain eats a little piece of itself. I trust that most anti-abortionists are consistent in thier way of thinking, though.

[TheBile 0]

A simple answer would be innocence. A fetus is perceived to be innocent and vulnerable. A terrorist is perceived to be evil and so it's easier for people to live with the fact of killing a terrorist than killing a fetus.
Maybe that's an oversimplified answer but I need to get back to work.

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[Vallerina 2]

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A simple answer would be innocence.

It's really not that simple. When killing "terrorists" or putting "felons" on death row, you do kill innocent people.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[DYEVOUT 0]

"my brain eats a little piece of itself"

-----------------------------------------

I now have a new favorite phrase.

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[happythoughts 0]

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Isn't killing always killing, no matter what the circumstances are?

I've always thought so, yes. Every time I think about those cases where abortion doctors were killed by radical pro-lifers my brain eats a little piece of itself. I trust that most anti-abortionists are consistent in thier way of thinking, though.

I had this conversation once. The anti-abortionists do the "If you could kill Hitler before WWII, a lot of people would be alive" logic. Kill a doctor and, theoretically, all the aborted fetuses would be alive. Not my logic or position, just repeating an explanation that I heard.

[AggieDave 6]

I'm pro-life, but then again, I have *very* personal reasons in my life that lead me to that belief (no, not religion and no I'm not going to tell all of you), the extremests really sadden me, since it belittles the beliefs of people like myself. Hell, it even bugs the shit out of me when they are just silently protesting. Here's why: At this point in the game, a person's mind is made up as to what they believe (whether for good reasons or not), protesting won't do a damn thing to convience them to change their beliefs. If anything, it resolves their beliefs and justifies why they believe the way they do.

You know, this entire debate greatly saddens me, kids are being killed before they even have a chance, people are being killed and for what? Personal freedom to kill a baby? Good job, I hope everyone feels real special.



I have no problem with stricking down the terrorists that have fought and worked to strike down my country. They did something to us, now we're going to repay the favor.

There are good alternatives to abortion. If you're going to play, use protection, there are quite a few different ways to do that, choose the one that works for you and your partner. Also, there are so many couples out there that are longing with all their hearts desire to have a child, but they can't, so they're longing and trying with all their hearts desire to adopt. There is a HUGE waiting list for that, give the gift of ultimate undying love, let they have a child for their own, brighting a family's life and giving a chance at life to your unborn child.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Vallerina 2]

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There is a HUGE waiting list for that,

I don't fully buy that, considering I know many orphans who went from family to family.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[AggieDave 6]

Actual orphans or chilren in a foster home program that became orphans.

I know quite a few people that were adopted, their parents raised them like their own and are fully apart of their family/extended family.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Vallerina 2]

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Actual orphans or chilren in a foster home program that became orphans.

Both. I guess I figured that if there was such a long list of people that wanted to adopt, then they would've adopted some of the people I knew.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[AggieDave 6]

Also, if a child is put up for adoption after they are a baby, the chances of them being adopted is very slim. That's very unfortunate and sad.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Deuce 1]

Well, a known terrorist is a threat to others, and a fetus, generally, is not.

If Roe v. Wade is overturned, the state legislatures will determine whether abotion will remain legal within their state. That "right" is guaranteed in the California Constitution.

[Vallerina 2]

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Also, if a child is put up for adoption after they are a baby, the chances of them being adopted is very slim. That's very unfortunate and sad.

Which is my point....if there is such a long waiting list to adopt, then why are children without steady homes?

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[bobsled92 0]

Everybody wants THEIR own version of JUSTICE.
If you think of things done by other people and one's self have done, be greatful JUSTICE does NOT exhist.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Meathorse 0]

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At this point in the game, a person's mind is made up as to what they believe (whether for good reasons or not), protesting won't do a damn thing to convience them to change their beliefs.

I wish more of us thought like that.

I've heard that "killing Hitler before he was born" thing before too.... pitched by both pro life and pro choice people. One can twist that theory into any form they see fit.

[misskriss 0]

Exactly... and many people want to adopt babies that only fit certain criteria. i.e....white God Bless those that will travel to China or Russia to adopt or will take in older children and children of different races.

Also....as the mother of three daughters I am thankful that they have a choice.

[skybytch 259]

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Good job, I hope everyone feels real special.

If you've never been faced with it, you have no idea how difficult the decision to have an abortion is. Just as raising a child is a decision that stays with you for the rest of your life, so does the decision to have an abortion. The difference is that raising a child has some times of happiness and joy mixed in with the pain and frustration; there is no happiness or joy before, during or after an abortion. While the physical pain goes away after a short time, the emotional pain lasts forever.

It is not a decision that any reasonable person makes lightly. It scares the shit out of me that our current government could remove this choice from the people who need it (and I do include men in that). Outlaw abortion and our already overburdened foster care and welfare systems will implode. It won't just be fetuses that will die, it will also be desperate women who go to backalley illegal abortionists. There will be even more children being abused and neglected by people who never wanted to be parents and who can't afford to be parents financially or emotionally. How special is that?

[AggieDave 6]

Lisa, you and I have PMed back and forth about this, albight a while back. I know what you're saying, you also know what I'm saying...eitherway I'm done with this thread, too close to home...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Vallerina 2]

I completely agree with you, Lisa.

Adding on...if you make abortion legal only in the circumstances of rape and incest, wouldn't that give women an even greater reason to accuse a man of rape when he is innocent (let's not forget that rape thread where men are under the impression that it already occurs frequently.)

Yes, as you've figured by now, I am pro-choice. I do believe people's opinions can change (from personal experience....I used to be anti-abortion before I educated myself more on the subject.)

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[blueshrew 0]

The thing about pro choice is: is it fair to bring a child to the world that you are not fit to take care of?
is it fair that it will be scarred for life for knowing it was given up? or is it fair that you might never be able to love it because it took your chances of a great career, for instance? what if it's a rape child?
Would you be able to give up your born child at all?

point is, you or anyone who is a bystander should not be aloud to make that choice for someone else.

Besides that, until a certain age (i think 3 months) a featus has about the same mental capacity as a kidney. calling it a baby would be absurd.

I had two girlfriends who have had abortions, and I can assure you they were really miserable about it. But at that point it was just not possible for them to have a kid.

[wmw999 2,122]

Back to the original debate, maybe it's a question of:

- "does all human life have the same value"

combined with
- "who decides then when it's human"

combined with
- "who decides when society's or their own values are enough more important than the individual's to take their life."

Good question, and a toughie. Particularly part 3. Am I inherently more valuable than a mugger who's likely to kill me? To myself, I am.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Deuce 1]

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Am I inherently more valuable than a mugger who's likely to kill me? To myself, I am.

To me too, Wendy