Very interesting article

[mnischalke 0]

Justin, the weed comment was a joke.

I don't look forward to altercations, rather, I am prepared for them. There is quite a difference.

I agree that the best defensive weapon is the one nestled between your ears, but, if you don't know how to use it, I am sorry for you. Then again, you are a skydiver. You jump out of airplanes into a chaotic environment and control your adrenaline. Maybe you might be good under pressure with the lives of your loved ones on the line. Who knows?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[jfields 0]

I didn't miss it. I just hadn't gotten to responding....

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Let me get this straight...You actually made up some bullshit statistics to 'illustrate' your point?

I clearly said they were illustrative, and not factual.

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1 a : the action of illustrating : the condition of being illustrated b archaic : the action of making illustrious or honored or distinguished
2 : something that serves to illustrate : as a : an example or instance that helps make something clear b : a picture or diagram that helps make something clear or attractive

Given that I didn't say the number were accurate, and what an illustration is, did it help to clarify the thought process of determining how drawing a weapon can actually decrease the chances of living through an encounter with a criminal?

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I'll reiterate my point about not being able to tell which of your contrived categories a given criminal may fall into. They don't often wear tee-shirts identifying the limit of their criminal intent

I agree with you. The inability to differentiate leads one to play the odds for survival, which favor passivity over armed response.

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100% of all the criminals that broke into my home, pistol whipped me, repeatedly put a loaded revolver against my temple and drew back the hammer, discussed sexually assaulting my companion-----caused me to feel as though our lives just might be in some danger

I'm sorry that happened to you. Without delving too far into the NRA's actions that increased the odds of that criminal having a gun to point at your head, what did you do? How did you use a handgun to get out of the situation?

A gun in the home made occupants three times more likely to be the victims of homicide and five times more likely to be a suicide statistic than occupants of gun-free homes

- May Journal of the American Medical Association.

Between 1988 and 1997, 6,817 children 5-14 years of age died from firearms. Compared with children 5-14 years of age in other industrialized nations, the firearm-related homicide rate in the U.S. is 17 times higher, the firearm-related suicide rate is 10 times higher, and the unintentional firearm-related death rate is 9 times higher.

The present study examined the association between four different measures of firearm availability and the rates of suicide, homicide, and unintentional firearm deaths among children 5-14 years old. The study found that children were more likely to die from suicide, homicide, and unintentional firearm injuries if they lived in states (or regions) with more, rather than fewer, guns. The increased rate of homicide and suicide in states with high gun levels was accounted for by significantly elevated firearm suicide and homicide rates. Overall, children living in the five states with the most guns were 16 times more likely to die from unintentional firearm injury, 7 times more likely to die from firearm suicide, and 3 times more likely to die from firearm homicide than children who lived in the five states with the fewest guns.

Miller, M., Azrael, D., & Hemenway, D. Firearm availability and unintentional firearm deaths, suicide, and homicide among 5-14 year olds. Journal of Trauma Injury, Infection, and Critical Care 2002; 52:267-275.

Check out this article (PDF format):

http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/8/4/262.pdf from the Harvard School of Public Health.

    

Incident                     Deaths(total)    Deaths(Firearms)

Romantic triangle	118	       81

Brawl due to influence		

of alcohol         	151	       67

Brawl due to influence		

of narcotics	                118	       79

Argument over money or		

property	194	       129

Other arguments	3,544	       2,074

Gangland killings	74	       62

Juvenile gang killings 865	       735

The premier weapon of choice for murder is the firearm. Source: FBI
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/xl/01tbl2-13.xls

Total murder victims Total firearms Hand-guns
13,752 8,719 6,790

Handgun murders almost equal all others combined. Same FBI source.

During 1993-1998, an estimated average of 115,000 firearm-related injuries occurred annually. Of these, approximately 30% resulted in death. The lethality rate is substantially higher than all causes of injury combined where <1% of cases were fatal. Both assault and unintentional fatal and nonfatal firearm-related injury rates were highest among persons aged 15-24 years; black males in that age group had the highest risk. Fatal and nonfatal firearm-related injury rates for Hispanics were less than those for blacks, but higher than those for non-Hispanic whites. The firearm-related death rate for males was 6 times higher than for females; the nonfatal firearm-related injury rate for males was 8 times higher than for females.


Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report: CDC surveillance summaries. Surveillance for fatal and nonfatal firearm related injuries- United States, 1993-1998. U.S. Department of Health & Human Services 2001

The key part of that one is how much higher the fatality rate is for firearms versus everything else combined. That tends to refute the arguement that the weapon doesn't matter and criminals will kill you with something else. They might try, but statistically, you stand a better chance if attacked by something other than a firearm.

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should you ever actually find yourself " in the game "

One of the largest decisions is not to put myself into the game. I do that by lots of personal choices. My personal security money is better spent on household illumination and good locks than on guns. They are more effective means of helping my odds of survival.

Even if my house were broken into and I were confronted by burglars, I can still contribute to my survival and that of my family by not escalating the confrontation by pulling a firearm.

We went over this in a gun thread long ago. I still believe that the most potent weapon I have, and my strongest means of self defense is my brain, not a firearm. Acting reasonably and using my brain to minimize my risk gives me a better chance of survival than getting a sense of bravado from a firearm that will likely get me killed.

[jfields 0]

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Justin, the weed comment was a joke.

Without knowing you, I didn't know that.

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I agree that the best defensive weapon is the one nestled between your ears

It is so much better than all the others, that they merit basically no consideration in comparison.

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if you don't know how to use it, I am sorry for you.

I think I do. You think you do. We both come up with different conclusions on the issue of personal safety.

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Maybe you might be good under pressure with the lives of your loved ones on the line.

The responses that best save the lives of my family are very different from those that the military or police instill for combat situations. My primary goal is not to subdue or disarm the opponent. It is to get my family and myself to safety. Sticking around and acting macho isn't what my family needs.

[Deuce 1]

You guys are still here?

[jfields 0]

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You guys are still here?

Yup. Some of us are stubborn as hell.

>

[flyingferret 0]

I would hope that even if you own a gun, your brain will remain the strongest weapon. Nothing says you have to draw and fire. And almost all training indicates that if you are not prepared to fire, do not draw!

I understand your statistics about guns. And I do not disagree with them. But as I post days ago, most of these guns are illegal, they are illegal before the crime is ever committed. They were bought illegally, they are carried illegally. The only thing my gun would do, IF I choose to draw it, is defend against a person who already has an illegal weapon. You want to make the statistics you listed look better? Have the police enforce laws that already exist, against guns that are already illegal. If you knock say 50% of those out of commission, and nothing changes, then you might entice em to support other legislation. But I am all for enforcing what is already out there.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[flyingferret 0]

I am pretty proud there are no flaming bonfires yet.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[Deuce 1]

This seems to be the longest this argument has gone without descending into personal insult, so there's that.
But nobody seems to be conceding anything, either.

JP
(The guy with the .45 you aren't ever aware of, on the outside of the circle usually just listening)

[jfields 0]

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And almost all training indicates that if you are not prepared to fire, do not draw!

If I had a firearm, I would certainly take that approach.

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But as I post days ago, most of these guns are illegal, they are illegal before the crime is ever committed.

Most are, but plenty of firearms used in crimes are obtained legally. Some are even people that bought them legally and got legal permits to carry them concealed. Sadly, it happens.

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Have the police enforce laws that already exist...

I'd like that too, even though I also feel that the laws should be tougher.

[billvon 2,400]

>the only thing my gun would do, IF I choose to draw it, is defend
> against a person who already has an illegal weapon.

I'm curious how you would know it was an illegal weapon. You get in an accident, a guy gets out of his car and comes running at you yelling, and you draw. Then he draws. How do you know his gun is not legally purchased and carried? How does _he_ know yours is? And what does that matter anyway, in that situation?

[jfields 0]

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And what does that matter anyway, in that situation?

It is vitally important, Bill!

How else can we make sure the mortality figures end up in the right columns?

[flyingferret 0]

[replyYou get in an accident, a guy gets out of his car and comes running at you yelling, and you draw. Then he draws.

[AggieDave 6]

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I have personally talked with DPS State Troopers who have run traffic stops their entire lives, and local cops walking a beat. Everyone of them felt that CHL holders made their jobs easier.

A LOT of the cops (like 99% of the DPS, local and sheriff) I've talked to, love the CHL program in Texas and have respect for CHL holders. They think that the program is doing a lot of good in Texas and that the good citizens are helping bring crime rates down. A sort of example is the couple times I've been pulled over since I got my CHL, the cop and I spent on average about 10 minutes talking about guns and defense loads. Cops (in Texas atleast), have a certain respect for CHL holders.

Look at it this way, lets say your state has a CCW and you're a perp wanting to hold up a gas station. There's two gas stations at an intersection, one has the legally correct signs to prevent a CHL from carrying in the business, the other has no such signs. Which one are you going to go rob?



Side note rant: Those little signs that have a handgun with a line through them (like a no parking sign), those do not legally stop a CCW from carrying in that place of business. In fact it is still 100% legal to carry in there. If that business owner becomes aware of you carrying, then he can ask you to leave and you have to by law, other then that, you can still carry. If you have to use your weapon while in that place of business, the owner can't sue on the grounds that you weren't supposed to carry. There is one correct way to legally prevent persons with a CHL from carrying into your business, it involves posting certain direct quote of part of the law, in spanish and english, with letters being a certain height and of a contrasting color. That or be a business where you can't carry (i.e. you recieve 51% or more of your income from alcohol sales).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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Side note rant:

The laws about how businesses can prevent concealed carry weapons from their establishments vary by state, I believe. So what applies in Texas may not elsewhere. But I think that in all states, businesses maintain the right to ban the weapons.

[wmw999 2,123]

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Side note rant: Those little signs that have a handgun with a line through them (like a no parking sign), those do not legally stop a CCW from carrying in that place of business.
...
it involves posting certain direct quote of part of the law, in spanish and english, with letters being a certain height and of a contrasting color.

In other words, it's OK to ignore the wishes of the owner if you don't tell him or he doesn't catch you.

I've heard the same argument from people parking in handicapped spots that weren't marked in the "right" shade of blue.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[flyingferret 0]

Yes, if posted as David mentioned. And you would notice, the signs are quite large.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/signposting.htm

Once again this is in Texas, but that is where I live and so am therefore more knowledgable about our CHL program.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[AggieDave 6]

No, this isn't an argument, its Texas state law. If they don't want me carrying into their establishment, then they'll post the sign correctly. Then I'll also never shop at their store in protest. Until an owner takes the correct messures to lawfully prevent me from carrying in his/her establishment, he/she is not going to try to take away my lawfully state given right to protect myself.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingferret 0]

Wendy, I see your point. However, the law is very specific. There is a large difference between a sign quoting penal code 30.06 and a little icon of a gun. The lawa was designed so that the sign was big enough and detailed enough, that someone would not be unaware of it and then charged for carrying illegally. Now if someone had the penal code posted, but not in the right shade, I don't think that any CHL holder would carry anyway.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't think that any CHL holder would carry anyway.

As another side note, a good 90-95% of the CHL holders that I know, if they see a business with the "fake" can not carry sign, they will usually take their business elsewhere, instead of their business to someone who is ignornant of Texas law and usually to self rightious as an anti-gun person to take the time to listen to what the proper measures are to prevent carrying in a business. More then a dozen times I've tried to explain what their sign means and how to properly post a sign to prevent CHL carry in their business, to be damn near yelled at by the owner. I was trying to explain it in a very calm VERY tactful manner. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,123]

It is totally your right not to shop at their establishments. I understand about the letter of the law (flyingferret, I'm also in Texas).

It's better not to patronize those businesses in the first place, and make sure the owners understand why. You're more likely to effect the kind of change you want that way.

Otherwise, it's kind of like sneaking out after curfew when you're spending the night, because it's not your house, and there aren't any alarms on the door.

Wendy W.

Edited to say: you beat me to it!

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AggieDave 6]

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It's better not to patronize those businesses in the first place, and make sure the owners understand why. You're more likely to effect the kind of change you want that way.

Did you read the post directly previous to the one you wrote? I've tried to talk to owners before, they want nothing more then to live in their own little "safe" world and not know the actual law.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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I was trying to explain it in a very calm VERY tactful manner. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

I can see your point, and they would have listened if they'd been smart, but take a moment to look at the other side.

If the proprietor doesn't want to partake in the culture of guns and violence, the last the they probably want is to be lectured by a gun owner on how the sign they have up isn't precisely right.

In any case, they probably don't want your business any more than you you'd want to give it to them.

[AggieDave 6]

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If the proprietor doesn't want to partake in the culture of guns and violence

The ostridge head in the sand theory, then..."If I don't participate in this, then I'll be safe from it..."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingferret 0]

By the way, ask Luby's how they feel about CHL

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[wmw999 2,123]

Obviously I didn't read it before I answered -- I did go back and edit. I had the compose box open while I conducted some work. Won't let that happen again

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)