Where do you stand?

[flyingferret 0]

Quote

>Peace is the ultimate goal of war.

No, winning is the ultimate goal of war.

So you think human nature desires peace? It is human nature to leave alone what you cannot handle. The radicals of the world will not be detered because we offer to understand them!

"If we desire to secure peace, one of the most powerful instruments of our rising prosperity, it must be known that we are at all times ready for war."
-George Washington

The ancient Roman expression "if you want peace prepare for war" is from "Epitoma Rei Militaris," by Vegetius

The purpose of all war is ultimately peace.
--Saint Augustine

And yes I think both those evils mentioned above were seeking peace. When you prove a formidable enemy, people do not attack you. Not because the like you, but because you have been proven in battle. Am I the only one that sees this point of military strategy? Please point out one major power in the world past or present that achieved that status without a dominant military. I maintain: "The ultimate goal of war is peace" and further contest that peace is impossible with war.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[bodypilot90 0]

Quote

either Israel would have to figure out how to live with the Arab world, or Israel would cease to exist, or the UN would be in charge of maintaining Israel's existence. It wouldn't happen immediately, but Israel is smaller than the rest of the Middle East.

who was the aggressor in the 6 day war, ect, ect. It was the arabs. Leaving the UN in charge to "help" Israel. Come on you can't believe they would do anything when they will not enforce thier own resolution.

[skreamer 1]

Quote

we do and the last time we told them the amount the piss ants whined that they wanted more!!! I say send them nothing till they stop whining and are thankful for what they have received.

The people who need the help are too busy dying to be doing any whining. The people who should be farming the lands are now too weak from HIV-related illnesses to work the lands, so now even those lucky enough not to be HIV-positive still get to starve.

Over 5000 people are dying from HIV-related illness in Africa every single day.

Reading through this thread there seems to be a lot of thinly veiled race and religious bigotry (Muslims/Arabs). Glad to hear Fortress USA is going to be kicking some raghead camel jockey butt no matter what the rest of the world thinks....

Sad times indeed.

[bodypilot90 0]

Quote

Yeah, it's much more fun to spend our tax dollars blowing people away. It's all about showing that we're just the biggest badasses out there, right?

Some day we won't be.

not fun but needed.

I think we will be the biggest badasses for a long long time.



Wendy how far have you traveled in the world?

[flyingferret 0]

Perhaps you have heard of a little thing we like to call the American Revolution? You guys did not get it then, nor do I care if you get it now. Besides Tony Blair appears to be with us on this one.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[wmw999 2,148]

Quote

Wendy how far have you traveled in the world?

I've lived in Brazil for 8 years; attended Brazilian schools and everything. I've been through most of Latin America, and spent 6 weeks in Europe. Had a great time in France, for that matter.

I have relatives I correspond with regularly in Argentina, as well as a number of friends in other countries. My intention is to keep travelling; I love it.

Is that enough?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bodypilot90 0]

Quote

Reading through this thread there seems to be a lot of thinly veiled race and religious bigotry (Muslims/Arabs). Glad to hear Fortress USA is going to be kicking some raghead camel jockey butt no matter what the rest of the world thinks....

Sad times indeed.

yea it's sad SH would not disarm! I as a american could care less what the UN thinks

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

or the UN would be in charge of maintaining Israel's existence.

And we all know what a wonderful job the UN does....

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rgoper 0]

Quote

I think we will be the biggest badasses for a long long time.

it is this type of logic/theory that may culmanate with our undoing.

[skreamer 1]

Quote

Perhaps you have heard of a little thing we like to call the American Revolution? You guys did not get it then, nor do I care if you get it now. Besides Tony Blair appears to be with us on this one.

The overwhelming majority of people in the UK (and Spain and Italy for that matter) are against going to war without UN backing. Perhaps you've heard of this little thing called WWII? Personally I'd prefer not to have to live through a sequel (or not as the case may be...). And I don't think rushing into this war will prevent terror attacks from happening again, in fact I think it will precipitate them.

G'night, I'll catch up tomorrow morning.
Will

[flyingferret 0]

I would not say we are rushing, as a matter of fact, I think Bush has proven himself to be the opposite of the cowboy everyone claims he is.

You may be correct that this will precipitate more attacks, but I doubt that abstaining from war would prevent them.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

Damn it, we have been doing nothing long enough.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[wmw999 2,148]

Quote

You may be correct that this will precipitate more attacks, but I doubt that abstaining from war would prevent them.

I'd rather not head towards "more" attacks simply because the only other acceptable alternative is "none."

Just to clarify -- "Less" is better than "more." "the same as we have now" is also better than "more." And "more" is better than "a whole lot more." And "none" is best of all, but it's probably unattainable.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[base698 1]

Quote

who was the aggressor in the 6 day war, ect, ect. It was the arabs. Leaving the UN in charge to "help" Israel.

First off the war was really more like 3 days. Nasser did that (that being moving troops to the Sinai considering he had world Israel was to invade) purely as a political move considering the Suez crisis of 56 (he had to appear tough shit). He had no intention of attack and Israel knew this. They used it as a move to gain more territory of the Sinai and possibly their sought after Golan Heights... Both the US and Russia told Israel the attack was not ok but they went ahead anyway.

[JJohnson 0]

Your logic or philosophy on war makes me cringe...truly. Where you get this stuff from scares me.
Of course the rule in war is to win. Why engage in anything if your object is to get your ass kicked?

But peace is the goal...no matter what. Now any country is free to have their own version of peace....the Axis certainly had theirs...but it is what they waged war for....their version of a peaceful world under their rule.

When another country disagrees with that version of peace...we have a war....

George Orwell was a moron as evident by his beautiful spiel on contradiciting words.

War can be a very effective tool for foriegn policy....always for peace. Just depends on whose definition we are using.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

George Orwell was a moron

Hey! No personal attacks. None!

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 2,434]

>But peace is the goal...no matter what.

Then work towards it rather than fighting for a war.

>Now any country is free to have their own version of peace....

Apparently as long as we approve it. Bush recently announced our new policy of preemptive invasion, a policy where we will use war to stop any "version of peace" we feel might someday threaten us.

>When another country disagrees with that version of peace...we have
>a war....

No, in a mature society, we have a debate. Notice how here in the US we don't kill each other any more? California just lost 10% of its Colorado water to Nevada; is war brewing over the loss of a resource that could bankrupt our farmers? No. That problem will be solved where it should be solved, within the halls of our government.

The world can work like that too, if we choose to support such a system. If we want war, though, we will get it. It's up to us.

>George Orwell was a moron as evident by his beautiful spiel on
>contradiciting words.

Most scholars would disagree with you. BTW which part of Orwell's philosophy do you disagree with? What makes him a moron? In which of his works did you find the objectionable philosophy?

If simple contradictions makes one a moron, then I would be careful using the "war for peace" thing too often.

[rhino 0]

Quote

>But peace is the goal...no matter what.

Then work towards it rather than fighting for a war.

I think the goal is to live free from terror. To be safe at home.

[billvon 2,434]

>I think the goal is to live free from terror.

Then for god's sakes, stop supporting a war that will increase terrorism!

[JJohnson 0]

You are a wonderful word twister, I salute you.

As should be obvious to one of your intelligence and maturity, throughout history...which is normally written by the victors of wars, so is the version of peace. Might makes right. In context of countries throughout history...they were right until proven wrong. Proven wrong by somebody else who had the balls and power to stop them and priove that theri version of history shall be the one to prevail. You can twist it all you wish, but it is the truth.
It may not be politically correct or right....but still the truth.

As for Orwell, war is never peace, lies never truth. But war can lead to peace.

Twist away.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[rhino 0]

Quote

Then for god's sakes, stop supporting a war that will increase terrorism!

I totally agree with the opposite of what you are saying..

Sadham could disarm today and all of this could be avoided..

[billvon 2,434]

>I totally agree with the opposite of what you are saying..

It's unfortunate that not a single expert agrees with you, and I hope you will not be one of the hand-wringers who stands around at the next terrorist attack and says "how, oh how could this have happened?"

We may have to attack Iraq. If we do, we must be willing to pay the price - both in the lives of our military and in lives lost to increased terrorist attacks. To not do so is to wear blinders, to pretend that everyone but you is wrong. Might make you feel better but isn't that useful.

[rgoper 0]

Quote

But war can lead to peace

this is the most contradictory, ludricrous statement i've heard in a long time. you think we've seen terror yet? we haven't seen nothing yet.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[flyingferret 0]

Very well said.

A show of force is a deterant, deterants generate peace. Bill, as for your notions about the world could "adopt such a system" Are you truly that naive? Most of the world does not think like us, either me or you. Do you truly believe that the majority of people in the middle east would embrace a system of democracy like ours and peacefully coexist? If so, you seriously need to do some history reading rather than forum reading. We are talking different cultures here. Ask anyone that has lived in the Middle East. I have not heard any pleasant stories that I recall. The middle eastern view of life is totally different than yours.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[rhino 0]

Quote

It's unfortunate that not a single expert agrees with you, and I hope you will not be one of the hand-wringers who stands around at the next terrorist attack and says "how, oh how could this have happened?"

We may have to attack Iraq. If we do, we must be willing to pay the price - both in the lives of our military and in lives lost to increased terrorist attacks. To not do so is to wear blinders, to pretend that everyone but you is wrong. Might make you feel better but isn't that useful.

I believe what JWB believes.. And that is the price for inaction will be FAR greater than the price for action..

Rhino

[wmw999 2,148]

Quote

A show of force is a deterant, deterants generate peace.

And the large number of troops massed to attack if Iraq quits destroying shit is a VERY effective deterrent. Iraq isn't attacking anyone right now, or even making any noises much more aggressive than the mewling of a kitten. That's a good thing.

Make no mistake, I'm hoping that this is, in part, a huge game of world poker. If so, GWB is a much better bluffer than I'll ever be, and that's exactly who I want in that position. Everyone thinks he can push the button. A lot of people hope he won't.

But I really hope it

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)