DontfallOff 0 #1 August 23, 2011 I'm looking at getting a smaller rig, and since I like my ZPX Pilot 150 so much, I'd like to stick with the Pilot as a main (just in a smaller size). I'm currently loading it at about 1.4 (depending on how many beers I've had that month) and I'm wondering if anyone is able to outline how the canopy performs when it is loaded higher? Is there a limit where the increased WL starts to reduce the canopy's performance and where a canopy that has been designed with a high WL in mind becomes a more suitable choice? Basically I'm looking for a canopy that will be a good WS canopy but just be couple of sizes smaller, my last 400 jumps have been on Pilots and Sabres (1s and 2s) of varying sizes, and I'm really happy with how my Pilot opens, flies and lands - if I can keep things about the same but make them all smaller, I'll be a happy camper. Obviously the best thing to do would be to test jump some in smaller sizes, and see what difference that makes, but before I do this, I'm wondering what experience is already out there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 August 23, 2011 Are you wanting a smaller rig or do you really want to load up a Pilot in the 1.6 range? 1.6-ish to about 1.7 is the top end of the wingloading envelope for the Pilot in my experience with the canopy. After that the canopy just doesn't perform all that well in general all around conditions. A tiny rig doesn't make you a cool skydiver, performing well and flying your canopy well (and safely) makes you a cool skydiver. Some of the coolest skydivers I know jump 190s.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #3 August 23, 2011 Thanks Dave - thats appreciated. So the that would mean that if I am aiming at a WL of no more than 1.6 that a 132 would be the smallest I would want to look at - especially taking into account more weight gain, winter clothing, and the effect of altitude if I travel to a DZ that has a higher landing area. Its not just one thing that is making me consider downsizing my kit, and I am taking the guidance of the much more experienced and conservative guys at my DZ to make sure I am doing it as safely as possible. My thoughts so far are as follows: Reasons I am considering downsizing my rig and canopy: + lugging my current heavy rig on and off passenger planes is getting old quick, especially since not all airlines allow sporting equipment to travel free, I had to pay almost US$500 to carry the extra weight from Australia to Europe recently - that is a whole lot of beer money that should have crossed the bar instead. + It is fun being under a smaller canopy, I appreciate that the risks do increase although jumping a bigger stable canopy is much more fun than not jumping because you're broken after an unintentional off DZ downwind landing into rocks. + There will be a very small performance advantage of having a smaller rig when wingsuiting - not as much as practice will give, but its a positive. + Being a cool skydiver is all about showing that you've got mad skillz - that's why youtube and small format cameras are so popular - back before we had those, it was low deployments and swooping that gave everyone a chance to appreciate the exceptional talent that we have - I also have a really big wingsuit, so people on the ground can see me earlier in freefall and appreciate my late deployment. + Having a tiny rig means everyone can see more of me. + All of the work jumpers at my DZ have really small rigs, and this will help me fit in. Reasons I am waiting to downsize (or considering not downsizing): - I am only ever going to get better and safer as I keep jumping my current gear. -Smaller canopy means everything happens faster - I will have less time to respond to any kind of problem when it happens. - Smaller canopies aren't as forgiving during opening, WS openings like a larger more stable opening - I could miss jumps waiting for a repack if I have to chop a spinning mal. - Landings become less forgiving with less fabric over the top. - If I get fat or travel to higher DZs, then my WL may become higher to the point of being unsafe. - If I get fat, a smaller rig will hide less of my fatness. - Its easier to do sports CRW with mates after a WS jump if we are all on the same wing loading. - People are more likely to watch my landings if there is a risk I will hurt myself (so less chance of flying under the radar) - that could be a positive as well though... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 August 23, 2011 Quote It is fun being under a smaller canopy I'm with you on this one. Quote Having a tiny rig means everyone can see more of me. I outsized instead of downsized...now everyone can see more of me all the time... Quote Being a cool skydiver is all about showing that you've got mad skillz - that's why youtube and small format cameras are so popular - back before we had those, it was low deployments and swooping that gave everyone a chance to appreciate the exceptional talent that we have - What if, and I do mean "what if," we wore a small format camera AND swooped...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #5 August 23, 2011 Then everyone could see our mad skills as we land... AND we can show everyone our footage again at the bar after the jump! Especially the guys who missed our landing because they pulled high! If we can just figure out a way to stream it straight to youtube I reckon we could retire! GENIUS Is your profile accurate? It says you have a tiny main, but that you pair it with a reserve big enough to land even if you're in trouble... that's the setup I want. If I need my reserve, I want to be able to land it safely even with blood in my eyes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #6 August 23, 2011 You consider a 1.72 WL on the reserve to be conservative?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #7 August 23, 2011 I jumped one at about 1.8:1 but only for meby 8 jumps. It flew fine, landed fine. YMMV Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #8 August 23, 2011 Oh shit! I misread that! I thought it said 172sqft reserve! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #9 August 23, 2011 Quote Oh shit! I misread that! I thought it said 172sqft reserve! He has a 176 reserve, at a 1.72 WL per his profile.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #10 August 23, 2011 Sorry, responded without thinking it through. A jumper comfortable on a 111 shoudl find a 172 to be a very conservative reserve size if they are not landing it with some kind of jump-induced disability. I didn't even look at the WL seriously - A WL like that wouldn't be fun to be under when everything has to count. I'd want enough fabric to be able to land safely even if Im landing as a result of an unconscious reserve ride. To maintain the same ration of reserve size to main size that he has, I would need to have a 232 sqft reserve in my container - much more conservative than I am doing right now. I still would prefer not to think about relying on a 1.72 wl reserve if I had a cypres save after being knocked unconsious in freefall... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #11 August 23, 2011 QuoteI'm looking at getting a smaller rig, and since I like my ZPX Pilot 150 so much, I'd like to stick with the Pilot as a main (just in a smaller size). I'm currently loading it at about 1.4 (depending on how many beers I've had that month) and I'm wondering if anyone is able to outline how the canopy performs when it is loaded higher? ... At my home DZ a jumper realy liked his pilot and dowsized twice. After the last downsizing he swaped it for a sabre 2 (135 I think) because in that size he did not liked the pilot anymore. So testjump before you buy one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 August 23, 2011 QuoteA WL like that wouldn't be fun to be under when everything has to count. I'd want enough fabric to be able to land safely even if Im landing as a result of an unconscious reserve ride. Sure, but if I go unconscious then my "ride" is a hearse.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #13 August 23, 2011 I'd be trying pretty hard not to go unconscious then I think! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcbfly 1 #14 August 23, 2011 I jump a Pilot 132 at around 1.5 as my wing suit canopy and it opens, flies, and lands great for me. No drama, even with massive line twists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
verticalflier 0 #15 August 26, 2011 You can load up the Pilot high if you are comfortable flying higher loaded canopies. It will perform very well in 1.9+ WL. I fly PT 96 with that kind of wing loading and it works great for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #16 August 26, 2011 Cheers VF, Have you flown Pilots that are loaded much lighter than that? If so, is there a substantial drop in performance as they get smaller? Or do they fly essentially the same (just faster) as they get smaller? I think 1.6 is about as far as I am going to go right now, but it will be good to know if they could cope with a substatial increase in wing loading Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #17 August 26, 2011 Quote1.6-ish to about 1.7 is the top end of the wingloading envelope for the Pilot in my experience Been wondering about this lately! I have had Pilots from 188 down to my current 132, and while I still really, really like my current one, I have been having this feeling that I wouldn't like a smaller one quite so much. This is just my limited experience here, I am no kind of canopy expert and don't have super many jumps. But: I felt like some aspects of Pilot performance got worse in the gap between a 150 (loaded around 1.5) and this one (1.7, maybe a tadge under as I've lost some weight). Specifically I'm not sure it glides quite as flat, and the flare power seems weaker right at the bottom. Like it's about as heavily loaded as it would like to go. Obviously there are people with a lot more experience jumping higher-loaded Pilots than me, so it's not likely to be bad. And it's still a great canopy, very agile and responsive. I just feel that the ones I've loaded a bit less flew even better. I wonder if I can borrow someone's 140 and try that...-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottygofast 0 #18 September 6, 2011 I jump a zpx pilot 117 for WS just about every jump and am 210 before gear, ws, and cameras... so id say im pretty close to 2.0 on most every jump on it and I love how it performs.. it swoops great and i can put it anywhere i want to, while making it back from a long spot and consistently perfect openings.. Cant say enough great things about my pilot, wouldn't trade it for anything! id say demo a 132 and see how you like it, and go from there~ Scotty BurnsZ Flock #11; Muff #1909; PFI #15, USPA Lifer Commercial Multi-Inst. Airplane/Rotory www.flyteskool.ws Aerial Photography Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DontfallOff 0 #19 September 7, 2011 Sounds ideal bro - pretty much what I plan to use mine for - the only thing I couldn't do is get a canopy to test jump - so I put my deposit on a new 132zpx - now I've just gotta wait for it to arrive :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #20 September 8, 2011 >1.6-ish to about 1.7 is the top end of the wingloading envelope for the Pilot in my >experience with the canopy. Agreed. I love the Pilot 150 as a demo/high altitude canopy. I just used one at Burning Man, where density altitudes hit 7000 feet or so, and it landed me well, without any drama. We had a 132 that I liked. But the 117 I got some years back was starting to get pretty doggy, at least compared to the Safire 119 I had to compare it to. Shorter recovery arc, high front riser pressure, shallower flare. That's not to say it can't be a good canopy, and it will still land you safely when flown competently. It just wouldn't be my first choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
