ChasingBlueSky 0 #1 October 9, 2003 Wow. I can't believe the Catholic Church has gone so low as to say this. This goes right up there with Nelson Mandela saying HIV doesn't cause AIDS. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031009/ts_nm/religion_condoms_dc_1 Catholic Churches Say Condoms Don't Stop AIDS - BBC 2 hours, 44 minutes ago LONDON (Reuters) - The lives of Roman Catholics in some of the countries worst hit by HIV (news - web sites)/AIDS (news - web sites) are being put at even greater risk by advice from their churches that the use of condoms does not prevent transmission of the disease, according to a British television program. If condoms cannot be absolutely guaranteed to block sperm, they stand even less chance of stopping the much smaller virus, the churches' argument runs. The Roman Catholic church opposes any form of artificial contraception -- particularly condoms, which it says promote promiscuity. But the traditional opposition is now being reinforced by arguments over their efficacy. "The moral argument against the use of condoms is being superseded by a clinical argument which is flawed," said Steve Bradshaw, reporter on the BBC Panorama program "Sex and the Holy City" that will be aired in Britain on Sunday night. "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon," Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Vatican (news - web sites)'s Pontifical Council for the Family, told the program. "The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." He said that just as health authorities warned about dangers like tobacco, so they had an obligation to issue similar warnings about condoms. The Archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told the program: "AIDS...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." While in Luak near Lake Victoria, Gordon Wambi, director of an AIDS testing center, said he had been prevented from distributing condoms because of church opposition. Bradshaw told Reuters the program team did not go out looking for the story, but stumbled across it during research. "We heard the same line so many times from different people in different places that we decided to approach the Vatican," he said. The World Health Organization (news - web sites), guardian watchdog of global wellbeing, rejected the Vatican view. "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million," the WHO told the program. It conceded condoms could break or be damaged and permit passage of semen, but said they reduced the risk of infection by 90 percent and were certainly secure enough to prevent passage of the virus if not torn. Panorama said scientific research had found intact condoms were impermeable to particles as small as sexually transmitted infection pathogens -- a view rejected by Trujillo. "They are wrong about that...this is an easily recognizable fact," he told the program. From Nicaragua to Kenya and the Philippines, the Panorama team found the same tale from the Catholic church -- that condoms can kill. No official comment from the Vatican was immediately available on Thursday._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #2 October 9, 2003 Looking further - it appears the Church came out with this back in April of this year: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/01/1048962756432.html_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #3 October 9, 2003 how can they possibly be wrong?? after all dont they get the truth right from god???____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #4 October 9, 2003 this reminds me of the "seatbelts can kill, I'd rather be thrown clear of the wreckage" arguement Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #5 October 9, 2003 First off, the Catholic Church's position isn't being accurately portrayed in the media. This is not new. The Church's position is that yes, the HIV virus is much smaller than the smallest pourous hole found in condoms. Therefore, there is a chance, albeit a smaller chance, that having "condom-clad" sex w/ an infected partner could result in the transmission of the virus. Same thing that no form of contraception is 100% effective, therefore having sex while contracepting could result in an unplanned pregnancy. (But hey, you can always fall back on what our society considers foolproof contraception and abort, in the event your pill fails or your condom breaks.) Which brings us to the next issue, condom breakage. It happens. Period. I don't have stats to back it up, but I've heard it range from 1 in 10 to 1 in 100 to 1 in 1000. And these breaks do not have to be large enough to be detectable to the unaided. Remember we're dealing with a virus that is extremely small. You wanna take that chance? Go right ahead... what the Catholic Church, in essence, is trying to say is that using a condom in sex w/ an infected person will not guarantee you truly safe sex. And given the incredibly high chance of DEATH once infected w/ the HIV virus, is that lusty, dripping, sweaty wonderful sex really worth it? Do you know that your partner is virus free? Unsure? Are they honest? Wanna roll the dice? Not me... However, more important is that the Catholic Church's stance against condoms in particular and contraception in general is based on the biblical view of sexuality, that the purpose of sex is for the unity of man and woman, the two in one flesh, as well as for the possibility of generating other persons, who are created in the image and likeness of God. This is what the medie NEVER say--that sex to the believing Cathoic is seen as the greatest gift God gave to man and woman. And to think that so many think the Church is down about sex... She is only down on sex that doesn't uphold the true dignity and worth of man and woman. Given this, the whole idea of promiscuous sex is seen in its absurdity. Such sex is for pleasure only, which is never a primary end of a corporeal appetite, and not for the higher ends for which sex was created. What a bastardization of what is most sacred in us! Contraceptive sex imposes a barrier b/t the man and the woman thus, not only preventing (possibly) pregnancy, but also precluding true union. "I love all of you and give all of me... except that which makes me truly male.... or truly female..." It is somewhat akin to the person who eats and eats for the pleasure of eating, but then purges afterwards so as to not receive the primary end of eating, nutrition! We don't call that healthy, we call that a disorder. The fact is that the Catholic Church is courageous to stand firm in it's beliefs and uphold the true dignity of man and woman in direct opposition to changing relativistic norms. Along with it's adherence to the prohibition of condoms the Church clearly states that what will truly bring an end to the scourge of HIV and AIDS and the incomprehensible suffering that ensues as a result, is abstinance for those who are single and monogamy for those who are married. Anything less is a pitiful band-aid on a gaping wound. In fact it is the Church's position that the incorporation of such a sexual mindset would go far to cure many of societal ailments. Just think for a few moments and it's easy to conceive. It's just that most people think it is too difficult to live that way and be happy. But until you've tried it you won't know. Perhaps what is most tragic of all is that too many people don't believe abstinance and monogamy are possible and/or desireable. My intent in the horribly long post is not to encite flames or a riot as I've unfornutately done in the past, esp. when speaking about abortion. If you feel the need to flame, so be it. However, it would be nice if we could all just have a nice discussion about this whole topic. peace... michael -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #6 October 9, 2003 well hello zen... no surprise to find you here... Quote how can they possibly be wrong?? after all dont they get the truth right from god??? although you're sarcastic, you're not incorrect... such truth did come from God... snear if you will... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
321seeya 0 #7 October 9, 2003 WARNING: Sex is a high risk activity whick may cause or result in serious injury or death. BUT CYPRES Dramatically reduces this risk........ Felt like being a dork.... BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE! Free the soul -- DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #8 October 9, 2003 Sinker, I agree - condoms are not foolproof, nor are they 100%. They break, and there is an undocumented chance that infection may still occur. Much like in skydiving, you can stack the deck in your favor and still die. No argument there. However, the Church is now extending its reach to prevent condoms from being handed out. And they are almost claiming that AIDS/HIV is a homosexual only problem (yet another uneducated view, one that makes me ill). If a condom works 8/10 times, which is below the stats that Trojan publishes, that is better than 0/10 times. If free condoms are not available, I promise the AIDS problem will increase. Look at the stats for AIDS in Africa. Esp take a look at South Africa - the nation hit the hardest with the infection. By 2010 there is a chance to have half the population of that country infected. Are condoms the cure? Nope. Could they help. Yes. But not if the Catholic Church and its morals have anything to say about it. It seems they prefer dead parishoners over those that use condoms. This stance is a step backwards in time. This is not an issue of faith, but an issue of reality. I was born a Catholic, I confirmed my belief and even studied to be a priest for eight years. However, once inside the organization, I saw it for what it was - a political, old-school, boys club with some very flawed and now dangerous practices. I haven't been a practicing catholic or theologian in some time out of disgust. This article has only helped with that._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #9 October 9, 2003 Quotesuch truth did come from God... snear if you will... Whatever ... believe what you want ... truth ... who's truth is that? ... yours and your religion? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #10 October 9, 2003 QuoteHowever, the Church is now extending its reach to prevent condoms from being handed out. Yeah, that's my main problem with them. They keep trying to encourage abstinence, but we all know that it just won't work. I do think people should be more educated, however. Just because you wear a condom does not mean you are having "safe sex." According to Planned Parenthood, four out of ten condoms have holes large enough in them for plenty of sperm to escape. Yes, this goes against the 97% effectiveness that condom companies say, however. If the Catholic Church hates sex so much, they really need to encourage self-pleasure more.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #11 October 9, 2003 QuoteQuotesuch truth did come from God... snear if you will... Whatever ... believe what you want ... truth ... who's truth is that? ... yours and your religion? Exactly. I don't want to hijack my own thread - but there is a religion out there that is being interpreted that anything Western is evil, and that their god will reward them for killing themselves in the name of him. We have a few thousand New Yorkers dead because someone believes this truth was handed down from upon high. This isn't a truth Sinker - this is only an interpretation of text thought to have come from a higher source. Very subjective._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #12 October 9, 2003 I'm sorry that your belief in the Church was soured. I'm also sorry that you didn't become a priest and try to change Her for the better as St. Francis did. Change from within IS possible. It has happened before. Inspite of the Church's failings, there are still so many beautiful things about Her. One of those is her teaching on sex. You may not agree, but so be it. Now the point I take issue w/ you hear is this: the Church has NOT claimed that AIDS/HIV is a homosexual problem only. Not in the least. I strongly feel that I am correct in saying that, both by consulting w/ the Catechism and other documents. If you can produce something contrary, I'd be happy to read it. Also, I do not completely disagree w/ your logic and the logic of WHO and the like that using condoms will HELP the spread of AIDS/HIV. But it only helps by SLOWING the spread , not by PREVENTING the spread. And the Church is not and cannot be satisfied w/ measures that only slow the illness. This seems backwards to many, but the Church's aim in Her teaching is to aim for the highest good, not at a half-measured approach. Why not aim for what will PREVENT the spread instead of settling for what mearly slows it? The Church does not want dead parishioners. That assertion is absurd. The Church wants to help people realize their full identity as Children of God and this is one of the ways of going about that. Thanks for your reply. -michael -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #13 October 9, 2003 f the Catholic Church hates sex so much, they really need to encourage self-pleasure more. *** Vallerina, how can you say that? Read for yourself what the Church even teaches about sex before you make such a judgement! It doesn't hate sex at all! But you won't see that from the outside... read what it teaches... The problem is, most of you won't even take the time to see for yourself what the Catholic Church even teaches and WHY it teaches it. Instead you'll likely just take what the popular media spoon feeds you. It's a shame really. But if you DO look into it, really look into it, you'll be surprised at what you find. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #14 October 9, 2003 QuoteI was born a Catholic, I confirmed my belief and even studied to be a priest for eight years. However, once inside the organization, I saw it for what it was - a political, old-school, boys club with some very flawed and now dangerous practices. I haven't been a practicing catholic or theologian in some time out of disgust. This article has only helped with that. Well, at least you come to the discussion with an open mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #15 October 9, 2003 QuoteContraceptive sex imposes a barrier b/t the man and the woman thus, not only preventing (possibly) pregnancy, but also precluding true union... It is somewhat akin to the person who eats and eats for the pleasure of eating, but then purges afterwards so as to not receive the primary end of eating, nutrition! We don't call that healthy, we call that a disorder. I don't call sex with a condom a disorder. That seems like an extremely poor analogy. The two situations are not comparable. For the medical issues, I tend to believe the World Health Organization more than the Catholic Church. Condoms may not offer 100% protection, but no condom offers zero. The argument seems to be that since it only works some of the time, it shouldn't be used at all. Abstinence? Most unmarried people have had sex. Realistically, that trend will continue. The world needs some realistic alternatives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #16 October 9, 2003 QuoteRealistically, that trend will continue. Yup, it seems like everytime the church speaks up on social issues, they become less relevant to society today. This is a good thing. I can think of few groups who've caused as much pain and suffering as the Catholic church. I'm happy to see them approach irrelevancy. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #17 October 9, 2003 Well, I had a Catholic friend once explain to me the Church's stance on contraception and natural family plannin. His words were: "Rape is better than contraception because at least rape is natural." I pretty much tuned him out after that. He was trying to explain what you were explaining: that the Church disapproves of contraception because it removes the element of procreation from sex which is, according to the Church, the primary purpose for sex. He went on to explain natural family planning, which is more or less the rhythm method, and how the church sanctions that. But he never explained how using natural family planning to avoid the primary Church-sanctioned purpose for sex was any different than using another method to avoid the primary Church-sanctioned purpose for sex.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #18 October 9, 2003 QuoteI'm happy to see them approach irrelevancy. Religion will always be relevant because it does two things. It helps people answer very complex questions with very simple answers. It helps them deal with emotional issues that they do not have good coping mechanisms for. A good 12-step program is an example of this. Now, instead of "God", they use "higher power", but the theory and usage is the same. There will always be people who view older religions as mysticism and silliness while viewing their current one as "truth". The new "big invisible guy" helps them sort out their life. Religion, in some form, will always exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #19 October 9, 2003 QuoteA good 12-step program is an example of this. Now, instead of "God", they use "higher power", but the theory and usage is the same. Peoples own beliefs are certainly not becoming irrelevant, but the trend is away from institutions like the Catholic churtch. The people I have the most respect for are those who've found their own god, not those who've grabbed onto the one the preacher told them about. People aren't giving up on religion, just specific monolythic churches. This is the good part. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 292 #20 October 9, 2003 The catholic church believes that condom use increases promiscuity, which it probably does, and that condoms don't work anywhere near perfectly, which they certainly do not. They state that the combined effect is to increase, rather than decrease, the spread of AIDS. That could be correct, if people are having sex with infected persons more willingly, thinking that they are safe. Probably not, IMHO. Believe what you like, there's no hereafter, just here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 October 9, 2003 Quote Well, at least you come to the discussion with an open mind. I try. Sorta. Maybe....kinda? Jaded? Moi? Naaaah_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 October 9, 2003 Quote*** People aren't giving up on religion, just specific monolythic churches. This is the good part. In America this is a trend in the Northern States...not as much in the South. From my undersanding, the majority of Europe still has a very strong following in the Catholic Church._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #23 October 10, 2003 The Catholic Church is definitely the best organization to speak about the efficacy of contraceptives. They clearly have a large research group on the matter. High-tech facilities and such. Yes, that must be it. Obey. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #24 October 10, 2003 QuoteThat could be correct, if people are having sex with infected persons more willingly, thinking that they are safe. People are knowingly having sex with infected persons? Doubtful, very rare. Condom use would slow the rate of infection. Their logic is flawed. With or without condoms, people are going to keep having sex. Condoms are not perfect, but at least it is better than nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #25 October 10, 2003 I can think of few groups that have done more good either. I'll edit this post so as not to post whore, but a couple of thoughts prior to me logging off. I'm extremely disappointed with the tenor of the posts on this thread. Some folks who are obviously quite educated have said some pretty flagrantly derogatory things about the Catholic Church - of which I'm a member. I really don't care what other people think about me, but the apparent anger and hatred for the Church I find troublesome. Perhaps it's growing up in KKK country as a Catholic that makes me sensitive to such things, but disturbed I am nonetheless. The Church has its flaws and its dark points in history. If you gave me ten examples of terrible things it has done I'd probably find ten more quicker than you could. All that comes from Rome and the Chair of Peter isn't necessarily accepted as Gospel by all Catholics - not by a long shot - and sometimes what comes out of there is very very very worthy of the criticism it receives. However, extrapolating a hatred and disdain for the Church as a whole due to disagreement with some of its doctrine reeks of stupidity, obstinacy, and ignorance. The Church has done more good for more people throughout history than any single organization I can think of, and I'm a pretty well read son-of-a-bitch. True, it's done some pretty awful things as well, but all in all I think the good they've done far outweighs the bad. Having traveled to many third world countries myself and seen what the Church is doing there, I can state unequivocally that I'm proud to be a part of that organization. Do I agree with them all the time? No. Do they deserve the disdain and apathy shown here? Absolutely not.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
