Claims of torture in Guantanamo Bay

[wmw999 2,163]

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I only mean by contrasting a few hand picked details....not the other little things like 10s of millions being roudned up and killed....

Because those are the parts that scare me. I don't really think that the US is going to go hunting for 6 million possible Taliban supporters and exterminate them in gas ovens while shouting "sig heil."

But it's possible to see similarities in things that aren't entirely alike. For instance, Dolly Parton and I are both female. Does that make us the same? Does the fact that she has certain noticeable features that kinda get your attention mean that we're not in the least alike, when we are both, in fact, female (and below 5'5", and above 40 years old, etc. etc).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JDBoston 0]

Let's see if we can all grow up a bit here and not get this thread locked.

Joe

[Zlew 0]

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He didn't say similaraties. And the comparision was made of two things that are pretty far away from being "alike".


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THis is exactly my point. What was said was <>
That's not saying that you and dolly have similarites based on atributes, it's saying show me how you are not the same. He didn't try to point out small similarites, the point was that the two were vastly similar. And they are not, not even on the same playing field, just like you and dolly are not on the same playing filed.

Z

[Amazon 7]

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My point is, there were concentration camps in all over Europe, including Germany. Saying that Poland was to avoid domestic issue is out of place. It was a matter of logistics and transportation. They started first with the Ghettos, and also concentration camps already established.

Most German concentration camps were in Germany and Austria (e.g. Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau) but some were in Poland (e.g. Auschwitz, Majdanek). Other camps in Poland (e.g. Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec) were not concentration camps but transit camps, i.e. most arrivals did not stay there but were reorganized to be sent on further (Belsen was also in some respects a transit camp). Theresienstadt, in Bohemia, was not a camp at all but a settlement for aged Jews and Jews considered privileged in some sense (e.g. those who had won medals in World War I).

Although the concentration camps originated before the war to serve a security function, during the war they served an economic function, i.e. the inmates were put to work on various projects, mostly war related.

The camps quartered ordinary criminals and political prisoners (mostly communists), and also some homosexuals and conscientious objectors. Jews were specifically conscripted for labor in the camps but until nearly the end of the war there were few Jews in the camps in Germany and Austria, because the idea of expelling the Jews included the concentration camps. Most Jewish inmates were quartered in the camps in Poland. In 1945 many were evacuated from camps in Poland, especially Auschwitz, and sent on, under chaotic conditions, into camps in Germany that were also in chaos.

The typical camp was actually a cluster of camps with a main camp which administered the others in the cluster, and near a town (e.g. Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz) that gave the cluster and the main camp its name.

Transportation wise.. the Germans tied up great amounts of rolling stock ( trains) that would have been better served to thier war effort i.e. being used to transport arms and men to the fronts.

Jeanne

[Amazon 7]

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not the other little things like 10s of millions being roudned up and killed....

The camps quartered ordinary criminals and political prisoners (mostly communists), and also some homosexuals and conscientious objectors as well as religious prisoners such as catholics who did not agree with the policies of the government.

You call me a conspiracy theory nut... so how far is it a trip for people who harbor John Ashcroft's Ultra Right Wing views.. and the erosion of our rights under the Patriot Act... to the imprisonment of these combatants with no legal status... to other groups in this country being rounded up and sent to concentration camps because they do not agree with the views or the religious practices or lifestyles or differing values that the fundies deem appropriate.

Yes its a stretch.. but I am sure most good germans in 1932 would never have believed it possible to happen there either.

Jeanne

[juanesky 0]

Zlew, They will twist the words, yes would not be honest about what Kallend said about the comparison, even when he hinted that there could be similarities in Gitmo and Nazi Camps.

Last refutal, is that in Dachau, it was only "transit", and that there were "priviledged Jews" back then, and that not all the camps committed attrocities. Next time, we will probably hear that they actually were well fed, and even given snack....

Again, it was not Nazi Germany intention to exterminate Jews, nor any other people that did not represent pure Arian blood....

It feels like we can re-make the wizard of OZ, we have all the characters lined up...the Lion, tinman, etc,etc......

Let's wish they can make it to Oz and ask for their wishes come true "there is no place like home"

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kallend 1,659]

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Zlew, They will twist the words, yes would not be honest about what Kallend said about the comparison, even when he hinted that there could be similarities in Gitmo and Nazi Camps.

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I didn't hint at anything. Gitmo IS a concentration camp by definition.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

Ahem, sorry to break your bubble, but all Prisons are concentration camp. Any of your futile attempts to compare Nazi camps with Gitmo are way off base...

You forgot to mention the little detail of the purpose, and location, Professor.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kallend 1,659]

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Ahem, sorry to break your bubble, but all Prisons are concentration camp. Any of your futile attempts to compare Nazi camps with Gitmo are way off base...

You forgot to mention the little detail of the purpose, and location, Professor.

I'm glad that you finally admit that Gitmo is a concentration camp. The truth will set you free.

Gitmo is not, of course, a prison or a POW camp. POWs and prison inmates actually have rights. Gitmo is JUST a concentration camp whose inmates have no rights.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

Ahem, again, you still tried to imply that there are similarities with Nazi's camps, and Gitmo. What rights are you talking about? In the other Guantanamo thread you are implying that the 2 ammendement (right for militias) apply to foreign militias anywhere in the world, are you trying to mislead people here or just phrasing conveniently for a specific purpose?

As far As I know, all people in jail are not free to many things. Again, your half hearted misconception of the comparisson between Nazi and Gitmo camps, are the real atrocity here.

Still you are free to write to your congressman, representative, and go through the regular democratic channels, what is really dangerous is the fact that you and your thinking does not offer a viable alternative. When 9-11 happened, then you were ready to crucify the intelligence agencies for not doing "enough", now, it is because it is over the edge. Yet I only see people with real conections with terrorism that are suffering, granted there will always be cases when the innocent are indicted, and I see you all worried that Big brother will take your precious freedom you are so willing to give to enemies. Still, you are still a freeman...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Shark 0]

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I didn't hint at anything. Gitmo IS a concentration camp by definition.

With the exception that their ovens are used for baking bread.

[turtlespeed 212]

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Ahem, sorry to break your bubble, but all Prisons are concentration camp. Any of your futile attempts to compare Nazi camps with Gitmo are way off base...

You forgot to mention the little detail of the purpose, and location, Professor.

I'm glad that you finally admit that Gitmo is a concentration camp. The truth will set you free.

Gitmo is not, of course, a prison or a POW camp. POWs and prison inmates actually have rights. Gitmo is JUST a concentration camp whose inmates have no rights.

[Sarcasm]
Noooooo, defending a democracy will set you free.

Planning or having support for those who consider bombing and killing people while hijacking a plane and running into a large building or using chemichal and or biological warefare will get you thrown into gitmo. [/Sarcasm]

Edited : forgot the end bold and it looked like I was yerlling, when i don't have to yell, like you could hear me anyway, but what's the difference.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,659]

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I didn't hint at anything. Gitmo IS a concentration camp by definition.

With the exception that their ovens are used for baking bread.

Please don't confuse concentration camps with extermination camps. No-one suggested Gitmo was an extermination camp.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

*ahem*, you may want to revisit your own post #230. and #235, and perhaps reconsider.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[wmw999 2,163]

Posts #230 and 235 make it quite clear that "concentration camp" and "extermination camp" are not the same thing.

They're on the same continuum, but the are not the same thing.

Jews (along with a lot of other "types") were shipped to Poland originally to segregate them from the Germans, and keep them in one place.

Later the ovens came along, but in the beginning, no.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,659]

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*ahem*, you may want to revisit your own post #230. and #235, and perhaps reconsider.

In #235 I wrote:

A "concentration" camp is not necessarily an "extermination" camp. The US put Japanese Americans in concentration camps during WWII, but did not exterminate them. Gitmo IS a concentration camp.

There's no inconsistency. And you have admitted that Gitmo is a concentration camp. What's your problem?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[juanesky 0]

and what about #230

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kallend 1,659]

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and what about #230

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

Go back and read your own posts. You might check them for grammar and spelling while you're about it.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Shark 0]

Dude,

The professor may be correct, regardless of his condescending attitude.

[juanesky 0]

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Can anyone give any good reason as to why they're being held in a camp in Cuba?

Same reason as the Nazis shipped the majority of Jews to camps in Poland?

"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history ....."

"And those who apparently thrive on bending the facts".

Here is another pearl. Freedom does not come free.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[kallend 1,659]

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Dude,

The professor may be correct, regardless of his condescending attitude.

Well, he has misunderstood or misrepresented the same stuff at least a dozen times in this thread. High time to stop being PC and start being condescending, IMO.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

Please read these accounts of CAPT Lance P. Sijan, USAF, and then tell me again how the ragheads at Gitmo are being brutalized.

Brings a tear to me eye, so it does.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Amazon 7]

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Please read these accounts of CAPT Lance P. Sijan, USAF, and then tell me again how the ragheads at Gitmo are being brutalized.

Well I guess since they are only rqagheads.. they are no longer human and deserve whatever they get.

When ever people get dehumanized its easier to do whatever you feel like doing to the "enemy".

We are supposed to be the "good guys" and not stoop to the stuff the Nips and Krauts and Gooks ( or choose any other dehumanizing term used in the last 100 years )etc have done to us.

[Guest]

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Please read these accounts of CAPT Lance P. Sijan, USAF, and then tell me again how the ragheads at Gitmo are being brutalized.

Well I guess since they are only rqagheads.. they are no longer human and deserve whatever they get.

When ever people get dehumanized its easier to do whatever you feel like doing to the "enemy".

They are the enemy, so there's no need for quotation marks.

(I mostly stay out of the hot-button threads, but I bit on this one...*sigh*)

However, although I'm certainly very skeptical of the adminstration's policies, there is a very great difference in treatment.

The situation is compounded by international law and by the Geneva Convention itself.

As I've mentioned before on this forum, those caught in a battlezone while wearing civilian clothes or friendly uniforms are subject to summary execution. That ain't me, that's the 4th Geneva Convention. That the Gitmo detainees have been quarantined rather than summarily shot says a lot about US restraint.

It doesn't, however, solve the problem of what to do with the ragheads.

They're neither fish nor fowl (not soldiers as recognized by the convention, yet they are not non-combatants) and we lack the stomach, it seems, to dispense with them as the Geneva Convention allows (execution).

An unfortunate situation, yet considering what the outcome could be as allowed by the Convention, the ragheads are getting a better deal than they are entitled to.

I don't see how these comparisons can be made.

American hands are far from clean. Witness the Tuskeegee experiments, and the atomic tests

However, these outrages pale in comparison to what the Nipponese did, and what the Nazis did.

To equivocate these cases is to compare not apples to oranges, but apples to giraffes.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kallend 1,659]

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Please read these accounts of CAPT Lance P. Sijan, USAF, and then tell me again how the ragheads at Gitmo are being brutalized.

Brings a tear to me eye, so it does.

mh

That's because you aspire to be BETTER than the enemy - that's always been the US way. So how about campaigning to make sure that the US CONTINUES to be better than the enemy? Instead you are, in effect, using the enemy's bad behavior to justify the US's bad behavior. Two wrongs still don't make a right.

PS I write as the father of a US Army Sergeant.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.