riggerpaul 1 #1 March 1, 2011 Am I the last to learn that the compliance date for Argus cutter replacement has been extended to "the first repack after 31 March 2011"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #2 March 1, 2011 According to Aviacom there isn't a problem with the cutters, there is a problem with installation and maintenance guidelines being strictly observed."Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #3 March 1, 2011 QuoteAccording to Aviacom there isn't a problem with the cutters, there is a problem with installation and maintenance guidelines being strictly observed. Yes, I have that document now. How did you come to have it, and when? That document says the distribution should have included email addresses on file. I had not heard of it before this morning when I sent an email to Aviacom requesting status. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #4 March 1, 2011 FWIW, people can find the bulletin about the extension (for replacing Aug '07 and earlier cutters) at: http://www.argus-aad.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=209&Itemid=33 07/12/2010 : SB AMMO071210/3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NovaTTT 1 #5 March 1, 2011 I didn't hear of it either so I jumped over to Argus to see if there is a new SB. There is, sort of. They've shifted the blame for the Poland incident (and any other Argus cutter problems) to install & maintenance issues. I guess those SS cutters weren't so great after all. The Sept. 2010 SB is attached for reference. "Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mexicangoblin 0 #6 March 22, 2011 I have emailed Karel Goorts at Aviacom a few times and cant get a straight answer. Any of you guys know when the new cutters will be ready? And what dropzones will get them? Currently my rig is grounded. My AAD was pulled at my last repack because of the cutter recall and my dropzone requires an AAD to jump... I want to know where I can send this cutter to get it replaced. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #7 March 22, 2011 Quote Currently my rig is grounded. My AAD was pulled at my last repack because of the cutter recall and my dropzone requires an AAD to jump... I can't give you an answer either, but any possibility to get another AAD (2nd hand or rental) ? Cheap is always too expensive scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreefdiver 0 #8 March 22, 2011 I got the run around from Karel too......after i bought an Argus and thankfully before it shipped. Cancelled my order and got a Cypres 2. I am very thankful things turned out the way they did, for me anyway. I know one guy at my dz who owns one, he not happy before, and especially now. Now would be a great time for Alti2 to get theirs to market.DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #9 March 22, 2011 QuoteNow would be a great time for Alti2 to get theirs to market.are you aware it is NOT an Alti2 AAD ? it is a MarS product, and Alti2 are exclusive importers for the USscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreefdiver 0 #10 March 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteNow would be a great time for Alti2 to get theirs to market.are you aware it is NOT an Alti2 AAD ? it is a MarS product, and Alti2 are exclusive importers for the US ok, I didnt know that little bit of info, but it's a moot point really. you did know what I was talking about and they will be connected here in the US to Alti2 for some time to come. No offense meant to our friends in "European and other countries" or MarS.DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #11 March 22, 2011 I'm not thrilled with this whole situation. As it stands, I have been waiting on 2 cutters since early last fall. Since there are two folks here jumping 2-pin argus units, I was able to lend them the 1-pin cutters that came with the units origonally. Not a huge set back, but I just feel like an idiot when these folks ask me where their replacement cutters are every week.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #12 March 22, 2011 Get an AAD that works as written in the manual Aviacom do have the difficult situation of being the "newest" kids on the block. When the Vigil came out, they were already 10 years (approx) behind the Cypres (experience-wise). Now the Argus comes out after 2 generations of Cypres, 2 generations of Vigil (and 5 cutters)... The "older" ones now have their products working properly and people start to understand the differences... Argus is how old now ? 3 years ? The product will certainly become a great one like the competition, but they still need time apparently. scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #13 March 22, 2011 I just got off the Phone with my friends at JumpShack ~ "At this Time, they are not planning on taking action. However, they will council with Mr. Goortz (spelling?) and make further determinations from that point"=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #14 March 22, 2011 Maybe there is something I'm not grasping at this moment ~ Lets say that we have 2 argus ground fires, one of which is did not fully cut the loop. Now, I'm not counting Poland, because one could (arguably) assume that that was a rigging issue. Okay, then at this point, Aviocom has 22 documented Saves. Logically, doesn't that indicate that the odds are 11.5:1 that the Argus will make a significant safety improvement in your skydiving? =========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #15 March 22, 2011 Quote Okay, then at this point, Aviocom has 22 documented Saves. Logically, doesn't that indicate that the odds are 11.5:1 that the Argus will make a significant safety improvement in your skydiving? Unless that rig made it to the plane, and the reserve came out over the tail of a fully loaded T-Otter on climb out of the first group out."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #16 March 22, 2011 Quote Unless that rig made it to the plane, and the reserve came out over the tail of a fully loaded T-Otter on climb out of the first group out. That's a factor in the probability of a failed cutter.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #17 March 22, 2011 Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the Argus indicate it fired and/or was not armed? I check it before every jump, so I doubt I would be responsible for bringing the whole plane down. It does suck that the cylindrical cutter could kill me, but I would rather jump with an Argus than nothing. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 3 #18 March 22, 2011 Quote Get an AAD that works as written in the manual . What if I don't want to jump a KAP-3? They all have had issues in recent times and not one of them is perfect but the KAP-3 is the most consistently effective and least problematic, except for user error perhaps [/:P]I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #19 March 22, 2011 Quote Quote Get an AAD that works as written in the manual . What if I don't want to jump a KAP-3? They all have had issues in recent times and not one of them is perfect but the KAP-3 is the most consistently effective and least problematic, except for user error perhaps [/:P] I vote for the Astra ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #20 March 22, 2011 QuoteI vote for the Astra The Astra had it's own growing pains when it first came out, just like any other AAD's....it came out near simultaneously with the Cypres, and Cypres took the center stage. I've always wondered in my mind what would have happened if the Astra would have come out 5 years later......Totally hypothetical, but it very well may have fared better.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #21 March 22, 2011 QuoteThe Astra had it's own growing pains when it first came out, just like any other AAD's....it came out near simultaneously with the Cypres, and Cypres took the center stage. I've always wondered in my mind what would have happened if the Astra would have come out 5 years later......Totally hypothetical, but it very well may have fared better. The CYPRES hit the market in January 1991. I can't find the exact date for the Astra, but it was around 1995 or 1996."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #22 March 23, 2011 Purely out of curiosity can anyone point me to somewhere that shows details of how the Argus cutter and Cypres cutters work? They are different but I would like to know how etc. I am just curious on the mechanics and interested in extending my knowledge. I have had a read of the installation and user manuals but there isn't the detail that I was hoping for.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #23 March 23, 2011 QuotePurely out of curiosity can anyone point me to somewhere that shows details of how the Argus cutter and Cypres cutters work? . Here's a decent analysis. I got it off dz.com recently but with all the Argus threads, and URL's not perhaps searching fully, I can't find it again. Wasn't even showing up in web searchs. MJOSparky or someone posted a bunch of links to all sorts of Argus reports & bulletins. The Polish report into the Polish fatality also has some close up pics of the inside of the cutter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #24 March 23, 2011 QuotePurely out of curiosity can anyone point me to somewhere that shows details of how the Argus cutter and Cypres cutters work? They are different but I would like to know how etc. I am just curious on the mechanics and interested in extending my knowledge. I have had a read of the installation and user manuals but there isn't the detail that I was hoping for. One of the incident reports (cannot remember which) showed a couple diagrams of the cutters. The only difference that I saw was that the cypres cutter had a blade and anvil (think axe and chopping block), whereas the argus cutter had a cylendrical cutter (think hole puncher). There may very well be other differences, but thats the only one I saw. ETA the document posted above is the one I was refering to."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #25 March 23, 2011 QuoteQuotePurely out of curiosity can anyone point me to somewhere that shows details of how the Argus cutter and Cypres cutters work? . Here's a decent analysis. I got it off dz.com recently but with all the Argus threads, and URL's not perhaps searching fully, I can't find it again. Wasn't even showing up in web searchs. MJOSparky or someone posted a bunch of links to all sorts of Argus reports & bulletins. The Polish report into the Polish fatality also has some close up pics of the inside of the cutter. Thanks that is exactly what I was looking for. I don't fully understand the point of cutting the loop in two places rather than one but am happy that as with most things there are compromises and valid logic. It also explains why someone mentioned (in a thread some time ago) why having a rig with the cutter at the bottom wouldn't lock closed (don't remember the brand but it could have been a Racer).Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
