H1-B (high-tech) visas

[happythoughts 0]

Originally, the basis for the H1-B visas was a lack of experience in certain technical skills. At the end of 2000, it was around 100,000 visas.

So, here were are in 2004. There is a lot of unemployment among qualified, experienced computer professionals right now. We no longer need these.

The whole thing has always been a lie. The contracting firms make their money on the "margin". Contracting firms that bring in foreign contractors have lobbyists.

Now there is no supportable reason to have these visas.

Any techie who reads this should send their congresspersons an email. You have nothing better to do today. I sent my representative and both congresspeople one today. Time to fight for yourselves people.

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree with you, to a point. If it weren't for H1B, the 6' tall, white blonde, hot, lithuanian chick wouldn't be sitting just around the corner.

[happythoughts 0]

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I agree with you, to a point. If it weren't for H1B, the 6' tall, white blonde, hot, lithuanian chick wouldn't be sitting just around the corner.

Instead, it would be the Swedish Bikini Team because you'd be able to afford a boat. Your choice.

[kallend 1,646]

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Originally, the basis for the H1-B visas was a lack of experience in certain technical skills. At the end of 2000, it was around 100,000 visas.

So, here were are in 2004. There is a lot of unemployment among qualified, experienced computer professionals right now. We no longer need these.

The whole thing has always been a lie. The contracting firms make their money on the "margin". Contracting firms that bring in foreign contractors have lobbyists.

Now there is no supportable reason to have these visas.

Any techie who reads this should send their congresspersons an email. You have nothing better to do today. I sent my representative and both congresspeople one today. Time to fight for yourselves people.

Outsourcing is good for the economy - the President told us so. H1 visas are just outsourcing without the hassle of sending the work overseas.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

You see, technically, that is correct. Cheaper labor makes for a stronger economy. The economy has been growing, and partly because of relaxed rules on outsourcing and hiring foreign workers. But, that benefit is going to corporate executives and share holders, not the 99% of Americans who are employees and have to compete with the more available, cheaper labor for jobs. That's why even though, yes, there is an economic recovery underway, it hasn't done diddly for unemployment. And even though unemployment has also been slightly decreasing, the median hourly wage over the past 3 years has dropped from $20/hour to $11/hour.

[kiltboy 0]

Ok here's the story from my standpoint.

Firstly I have several friends on H1 visas. Some are doing post-docs some are in industry while others are working in state type jobs (public health labs etc.) H1 visas are not just issued to the Techie type people that you mention, the IT industry is just a small part of a bigger picture.

Most of my friends progressed onto H1 visas after grad school when the one year optional practical training, post-graduation, expired.
Certain companies such as Pfizer, Merck etc. will only sponsor H1 visas were there is a genuine lack of the skills required i.e. solid state NMR etc. and not to dime a dozen chemistry graduates.
For 2001, 2002, 2003 there were 195,000 visas issued each year. This year (2004) saw 65,000 issued and they were all snapped up at the beginning of February and the next quota starts in October.

The visas are required. Better vetting of the applications would reduce the number of visas issued to those industries that are not in a skill shortage such as IT.

David

[AdD 1]

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That's why even though, yes, there is an economic recovery underway, it hasn't done diddly for unemployment. And even though unemployment has also been slightly decreasing, the median hourly wage over the past 3 years has dropped from $20/hour to $11/hour

Medians really have no meaning in statistics... it's the middle number in a sequence. Was that average wage or really median?

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[PhillyKev 0]

Actually, it was median, meaning half made more, half made less. I did misquote a little, though. $20/hour was the median wage of workers laid off over the past 3 years. $11 was the median of new workers hired over the past 3 years (many of whom are those that were laid off). I don't see why that is meaningless, though. It's a clear indication that wages have dropped significantly for the millions who have lost jobs and were fortunate enough to find a new one.

[vonSanta 0]

Heh, I considered applying for one. Then I decided being unemployed in Denmark, with educational opportunities and guaranteed money if I do my part was preferrable than being an unemployed IT bum in the US.

Btw, we had (still have) the same problem. Funny, huh?

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[DJL 232]

How about you techie guys get to work or go learn some shit instead of just sitting around and forwarding emails about how non-tech people don't know how to fix their mouse? Then when something really is wrong you'll actually understand it instead of just pulling the answer out of a troubleshooting guide. You're feeling the heat from India because those guys actually know their shit and do their work instead of playing ping-pong between breaks on the $5000 expresso machine.

Oh shit, I went and said it now!

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[PhillyKev 0]

[JoeyRamone 0]

The problem is most of the laid off Americans were say, old Main frame programmers, How does it affect them when a company is developing in a J2ee, Weblogic, Oracle environment and we decide to sponsor Ravi Patel from India, who was top of his class at the Indian Institute of Technology, This school is harder the MIT and Harvard combined, so don't shot off your traps about something you don't not know.

So I sponsor Ravis visa and pay him a 55k starting base. What the hell does that have to do with Jack Smith the 20 year Cobol programmer who never updated his skills with the current technology? That is his problem, that is why he got laid off. Also the 20 years person wants 85 k base, well I just hired Ravi at 55k and I have a better chance of him staying with my company.

Most of the people laid off in technology were to old to get a fair shake or did not better there skills, or they did not relocate to a better market.

I have not had one friend affected by the dot com burst, why because they were all adaptable, ready to change with the times and not blame the foreign nationals for there problems.

[PhillyKev 0]

And GWB doesn't knwo anyone who is unemployed either, so because of your narrow personal experience, there must not be a problem?

[JoeyRamone 0]

The facts speak for themselves. I have been hiring people in technology and have done so for 15 years. All the same excuses all the time. If people keep there skills up to date, either on the technical side or Project Management side, Had some certifications
they would not be out of a job.

It was the people that took advantage of a great economy 5 years ago, never thought the wave would end that are suffering now. The hi-visa were in place a long time before GWB was in office my friend.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Tim,

You know I have hired H1B Visa workers as well - and at first it was because the enterprise environments were switching from large frame to mid-range systems and no one on staff had that skill set. There was a vast untapped source of highly skilled workers coming out of Indian Institute of Technology - and these guys got the work done. So we turned to the Visa market.

A lot of the older guys were just waiting for retirement, and the Y2K bug kept them employed at high salaries to debug old Cobol code with the most famous deliverable date in IT history. (there were plenty of people at my AIX job switching into Cobol because it looked like that market was going to stick around since the Fortune 500s were not getting rid of large frames) A good portion of them kept their jobs thru the end of 2001, but they were slowing ending up laid off or on the bench. My company found we were taking a huge hit from our bench and started to let them go or tried to turn them into Project Managers. Some were able to reeducate themself quick enough to get a lower paying job at mid-level experience. Most of these guys just needed another year before they could retire young, and I can see why they didn't bother to learn C++ or OOAD.

It was great hiring H1B's because I would bill them out for J2EE over $100/hour and pay their headhunter about $45/hour, and the H1B would see about $15/hour. The margin on that made our bosses happy! This was a time when a Java consultant with one year of experience could charge $90/hour - and there were a handful that we could choose from...but we didn't. The margin on these guys sucked and we were told to go with the H1B instead.

Now it is almost five years later and there are PLENTY of highly skilled American citizens that can fill these jobs, but no one is taking them. Dell, EDS, Xerox, etc have all moved their NOCs and call centers off shore. I left the IT field behind because there were no jobs to be had. Almost all of my IT friends in Chicago have changed careers because they were sick of the unemployment line. Yet, Clinton and GWB both allowed more H1Bs to be had.

I know how much this sucks - I was replaced on a data migration contract because an H1B made them more money for the same experience level. As a recruiter you haven't had to face the reality of the visa market and how that equates to no job stablity even if you are young, skilled and always taking continuing education. I've also enjoyed the HUGE commision checks that hiring an H1B gets you...and when you are in that position, it makes financial sense to take the Visa IT guy.

I miss IT, I wish I could go back to that field....but I got tired of collecting unemployment checks every year for the last three years.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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And GWB doesn't knwo anyone who is unemployed either, so because of your narrow personal experience, there must not be a problem?

You have to blame Clinton at the same time - he increased the amount of H1B's this country gives out a couple times. GWB has done the same....so blame goes to both.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[JoeyRamone 0]

Brian,

I agree with you on some points but this one i do not.

It was great hiring H1B's because I would bill them out for J2EE over $100/hour and pay their headhunter about $45/hour, and the H1B would see about $15/hour. The margin on that made our bosses happy! This was a time when a Java consultant with one year of experience could charge $90/hour - and there were a handful that we could choose from...but we didn't. The margin on these guys sucked and we were told to go with the H1B instead. ***

I never took advantage of what we paid someone on an h1-visa. They were all paid fair market rate that is why they did not leave my company after getting a green card. Brian if you want to get back into the game let me know i can have you doing UNIX, Oracle, PL/SQl developement by Monday.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I never took advantage of what we paid someone on an h1-visa. They were all paid fair market rate that is why they did not leave my company after getting a green card. Brian if you want to get back into the game let me know i can have you doing UNIX, Oracle, PL/SQl developement by Monday.

I didn't do it by choice - I was told by the AE's and the VP of recruitment what the billing had to be so they could afford the payments on their Lexus. Plus we had a simple breakdown - if it was an American the margin was single digits, and if it was H1B we had to get double digits.

Your ethical billing is rare in this field - and I think you know that.

Thanks for the offer but: 1) I am nearly two-years rusty on this stuff now and wouldn't make a good hire, and 2) I would be worried about the longevity of any job in this field right now. It is nice approching the one year mark at a job and not have to worry if I will be on unemployment at any given time.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[JoeyRamone 0]

Your ethical billing is rare in this field - and I think you know that.
***

I guess that is why we have been a success in the worst economy in a long time. Our company was started in March of 2000. We have grown 30% a year every year. I also head up all the recruiting and sell too. 80-100 hours a week but i love what i do so i wont complain. Best of luck Brian.

[Guest]

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If people keep there their skills up to date, either on the technical side or Project Management side, Had some certifications
they would not be out of a job.

How about the people who HAVE certifications, who HAVE kept up, but got the ol' "Bangalore Torpedo" because they've got a mortgage and a family to support, and thus expect a living wage, while your buddy Ravi-Oli will work for peanuts? There's no amount of education and/or certification that an American worker can have that can possibly compete with that, so please don't patronize me.

mh

Curently working on MCDBA
Win2k MCP 2004
Comptia Network+ 2003
WinNT MCSE 2000
CNE 4.11 1999
Comptia A+ 1997

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[GrumpySmurf 0]

"I have not had one friend affected by the dot com burst, why because they were all adaptable, ready to change with the times and not blame the foreign nationals for there problems. "

I've had a few friends/co-workers who got nailed due to the dot-bomb - but likewise, the ones who were willing to move found work in a matter of weeks or months. The old timers who were settled down took, in some cases, years. I had a feeling something was up after the first round of layoffs, started hunting and found a new job out of state 2 weeks before they shut the office down.

It's the new economy of high tech - you have to constantly prove your worth to your employer, because all they care about is the bottom line. Plain and simple. If they can get better quality work for less, why wouldn't they go elsewhere. Just like if you want a decent pay raise, staying at your current job is the worst way to go about it.


The Indians are the grunt programming work, my job and that of my inhouse sub-ordinates, s be domain experts. I'm the architect, the Indian contractors are the construction labour.

Oh yeah, I'm one of them nasty H-1Bs too. Oddly enough when I offered to take a Design Resident Engineer position for my employer back home at GM's design center in Oshawa, Canada, they said not a chance in hell, as I wasn't replacable - even though it would be cheaper for them to hire a semi-qualified US local and not have to pay legal fees for my visa and Green Card. Again just a matter of cost vs. benefit to your employer - a few tens of thousands of dollars extra per year with the pay off of the success of programs worth hundreds of millions.

[riddler 0]

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Originally, the basis for the H1-B visas was a lack of experience in certain technical skills.

Not true. The original reason was and still is the same. Cheap labor. When the economy was good, the corporations whined about "not enough technical people", but the truth was they didn't want to pay the increasing wages brought on by the good economy. Now that the economy is not as good, corporations are STILL whining about I.T. being too expensive, despite domestic rates going way down.

Same thing happened to farmers 50 years ago when planes allowed cheap produce to be flown in from other countries. Today, many farmers get by on government subsidies. Same thing happened to the auto industry when corporations found it cheaper to build and run plants in Mexico. Today, unions help keep auto jobs here.

I figure in another 50 years, I.T. people will unionize, or start getting government subsidies. Until then, my plan is to become a migrant software developer in Japan. Sure, it'll be hard work in terrible working conditions, but at least I'll make some money to send home to my family

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[JoeyRamone 0]

Well you went into the career path for the networking area.
I see no short fall in the java area, PMI certifications, MCSD certifications as well.

I currently have over 30 open positions. From Unix, C#, .NET, Java, Oracle, SAP and so on.

I never have and never will get into the Lan/Wan area. That work does not take an expert to fill.
Most of the people that got into the area of your expertise did not need a college degree and could pick up up on the fly. Companies paid and still pay for peoples Application skills or Project management skills along with being a SME (Subject Matter Expert) in a specific field.
You can not keep everyone happy.

I am just stating my views from 15 years in the business. It is never too late to learn a new skill.

[JoeyRamone 0]

while your buddy Ravi-Oli will work for peanuts? ***

As i stated before I have never hired a foreign national and under paid them, they are paid the same as a good old American.

I guess it is easier to blame others then to make a change for the better. Guess what life is not fair..Deal with it.

[wlie 0]

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H1 visas are just outsourcing without the hassle of sending the work overseas.

Yeah, and these foreigners get to pay tax including Social Security which they're not entitled to any of the benefits anyway. All the more we should issue these H1-B's

My other ride is the relative wind.