High Winds After Exit

[cphelan 0]

With the recent fatality in longmont, co there has been alot of questioning on the wind conditions. I am a low time jumper, less than 80 jumps, and am concerned with the best route to take if wind conditions pick up after you have exited the plane. I jump at mile-hi in longmont where the winds can change unexpectadly and dramatically. Obviously flying your canopy very conservative is the first thing you would want to do but should you start your downwind higher and turn to your final higher? What happens if your canopy starts backing up? Etc....?

[billvon 2,434]

A few things:

1) Learn how to "back in" if needed. Basically you'll be going backwards slightly and will have to learn to both guide yourself and do a good PLF. Note that winds diminish as you descend; if you are backing up a little at 3000 feet, odds are you won't be backing up by 50 feet, so plan your approach accordingly.

2) Get down faster if you are backing up fast. Front risers can work for this, but do not use front risers below about 500-1000 feet in turbulent winds, since they can exacerbate canopy instability.

3) Be aware of outs behind you. You may want to turn and run for a big field you know you can make instead of risking not making your original target. Remember that the same winds that are slowing you down will help you reach any fields downwind of you.

4) Be VERY careful landing downwind of obstacles. Stronger wind = more turbulence. Make sure you use the 10x rule - if a tree is 10 feet tall land at least 100 feet away from it. 200 feet is even safer.

4) Don't do much of a flare if you have no forward speed. Just barely touch the brakes enough to slow your downward speed. Flaring further will make you back up faster. Get ready to do a good PLF and be sure to twist one way or the other so you don't go flat on your back/neck.

5) Prepare to collapse your canopy _fast._ In very bad winds, consider cutting away to avoid being dragged. If you are considering doing this, disconnect your RSL once you are below 500-1000 feet.

[NWFlyer 2]

I'm not a lot more experienced than you are, so I'd say the first thing to do is keep an eye out before you even get on the plane. My definition of "borderline" is sometimes more conservative than other people's, and it sometimes has me on the ground safely watching others who come down and say "wow, the winds changed a lot from when we took off." That's because I looked at the winds and said they're already borderline for me and didn't want to take the chance that they were going to get worse.

Look at what the people who have a lot of jumps are doing - if they're sitting down, chances are it's a good time to sit down and watch, too. Last weekend, I watched a load land, and saw some sketchy air, and talked to a jumper who had a couple thousand jumps. She told me the air was pretty bumpy, so I decided to scratch myself off the next load and watch for a little while to see if the air settled down. I was doing a jump with three people who each had around 100 jumps and none of them pulled off the load. Turned out the winds settled back down, but I still stand by my decision and the example I (tried to) set.

If you're on the plane and information comes your way that allows you to make a decision to stay on the plane (such as the DZO deciding to hold the tandems and other students), use that information wisely. I was at ZHills a few weeks ago and watched that very scenario play out (from the ground). The DZO saw how much the winds/gusts were increasing and radioed the plane and held the tandems ... most fun jumpers stayed on the plane with those tandems ... and a few still got out.

But if you don't get that kind of info and find yourself under canopy under very high winds, then yes, some of the things you talked about make sense.

Be prepared not to make much penetration into the wind, including coming straight down or going backwards, so look at your entire pattern for clear space, and don't turn onto final with a building or bank of trees right behind you. Be prepared to shut down your canopy very quickly when you land, including possibly cutting it away (so if you have an RSL, you might wish to disconnect it after you know you're under a good canopy).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[ryoder 1,400]

For the question you are asking:

"What To Do When the Wind Picks Up" - Gary Peek
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=38


In relation to that fatality thread that prompted you to ask it, I wasn't there, but from what I am reading, this seems very relevant:

"Wings Level" - Skratch Garrison
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=42

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[peek 20]

Quote

For the question you are asking:

"What To Do When the Wind Picks Up" - Gary Peek
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=38
"Wings Level" - Skratch Garrison
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=42

Everyone please note that this article was written long enough ago that now a number of people will no longer agree with the sentence in the article that says, "Your canopy will be more stable if you hold partial brakes.", at least with some types of canopies.

[cphelan 0]

lots of good advice guys thanks!!!

[councilman24 36]

What Bill said plus,

Don't hesitate to cutaway on the ground even if you have your RSL attached. You may have your ripcord pulled and reserve opened, but your reserve will not inflate and continue to drag you. People have been killed being dragged after a safe landing.

(This may be in Gary's article, I didn't reread it)

Us old folks learned to land backing up because EVERY landing was going backwards for the most part.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

With the recent fatality in longmont, co there has been alot of questioning on the wind conditions. I am a low time jumper, less than 80 jumps, and am concerned with the best route to take if wind conditions pick up after you have exited the plane. I jump at mile-hi in longmont where the winds can change unexpectadly and dramatically. Obviously flying your canopy very conservative is the first thing you would want to do but should you start your downwind higher and turn to your final higher? What happens if your canopy starts backing up? Etc....?

High Wind Landing Approaches

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.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[SPAWNmaster 0]

Would any more experienced jumpers recommend getting on double fronts (just a little bit) to help get some forward drive ~500 in a high wind situation?

[billvon 2,434]

>getting on double fronts (just a little bit) to help get some forward drive . . . .

In my experience, that doesn't increase your drive a significant amount. It just gets you down faster - which can be useful when you're backing up.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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4) Be VERY careful landing downwind of obstacles. Stronger wind = more turbulence. Make sure you use the 10x rule - if a tree is 10 feet tall land at least 100 feet away from it. 200 feet is even safer.

This is one point that cannot be stressed enough, IMO.

NOT landing downwind of obstacles has always been my going "Plan A" for landing in windy conditions for a long long time now. Basically because of what I was told by the experienced folk when I was coming up and from what I've experienced and observed along the way since then. In otherwords, if the winds are up, my plan is to set-up and land in an open area that is very much well away from being downwind of an obstacle... even if it means walking further or waiting for a ride.

Failing not being able to land away from being downwind of an obstacle... get as far downwind as possible from it, would be my 2 cents and be ready to PLF... I've seen lots of folks find that "elevator shaft" when landing downwind of an obstacle... flare their canopy for all their worth and it do nothing to arrest the descent rate, just only change the attitidue of the canopy and hammer in... sometimes with just bumps, bruises and a dirty jumpsuit/rig... sometimes with broken bones.

I too have used the "cut-away once on the ground" technique to keep from getting drug or to not have to deal with trying to collaps a hundred plus square feet of nylon and lines once on the ground.

I realize that it doesn't help much if you're already under canopy and the winds come up... but very rarely does it go from calm to 30mph in the space of load with no evidence available prior to a keen observer... but one thing that I was told as a newb that helped me out and that I try to pass on is, if you're at the DZ looking at the wind meter trying to decide if you want to go up or not is to add 7mph of windspeed to what its doing "now" and decide if you'd like to be landing your main (or reserve) on (or off) the DZ in "that" wind-speed and then decided whether to manifest or not... just something to think about... others may think differently.

[mnealtx 0]

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I've seen lots of folks find that "elevator shaft" when landing downwind of an obstacle... flare their canopy for all their worth and it do nothing to arrest the descent rate, just only change the attitidue of the canopy and hammer in... sometimes with just bumps, bruises and a dirty jumpsuit/rig... sometimes with broken bones.

I can speak to the bolded above from personal experience... no injuries, but hammered in hard enough (and from higher than I EVER hope to have to do a PLF from again) that I was nauseous for a couple hours afterwards from the impact.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pchapman 262]

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A few things:

1) Learn how to "back in" if needed. [...]

3) Be aware of outs behind you. You may want to turn and run for a big field you know you can make instead of risking not making your original target. Remember that the same winds that are slowing you down will help you reach any fields downwind of you.

To add to this:

I SUGGEST MAKING A DOWNWIND RUN BEFORE A SHORT FINAL INTO WIND:

I think one source of fear is the problem not being able to see behind you while facing into the wind yet being pushed back. You can't very well see where you are getting pushed. Very scary!

But you doesn't to have to try to "back in" from opening altitude down to the ground!

(Even if you are told instead to crab in, from upwind and to the side, it is tough to look back over your shoulder to see the target.)

Although hopefully the spot was far enough upwind, perhaps after opening you do want or need to hold into the wind for a long time, ensuring that you stay upwind of the DZ.

But then when it is time to decide on an approach, you can start a long downwind run from well upwind. (It doesn't matter if that downwind run is for the original target area or for a big alternate field like Billvon suggested.)

Heading downwind you'll be screaming over the ground, but you can see where you are going.

Maneuver yourself to above a safe landing area, making sure you get there at a fairly low altitude, just enough for you to make a 180 turn onto a short final approach into wind. You decide what a safe turn altitude is, given your experience.

I'm not saying to hook it hard and low in turbulence. But you don't want to start your final at 500', and end up being blown backwards quite a ways, again trying to look down backwards between your legs to see what you'll hit.

If you get onto final at only, say, 50' to 200' you won't have time to blow back very far, and you'll stay within the safe landing area you chose. And by those lower heights the wind speed might have gone down a little.

(To be fancier about this, and you want real accuracy, do the crab approach from ahead and to the side. It is tricky to manage well, but can be accurate, and is still easier than backing up straight.)

All this is just what I liked to do, even when I was inexperienced. I've never heard anyone discuss this technique, so I don't know whether others would recommend it. This isn't just for newer jumpers; I've seen some tandem instructors who really could use the technique when caught by high wind.

<< See attachment for a sketch >>


IT'S OK TO JUMP BIG CANOPIES IN HIGH WINDS:

For years my only canopy was an accuracy canopy, and even at 0.65 wing loading, back when I had 200 jumps, I basically never stood down a load when others were jumping and the planes were taking off.

(Eg, 170 lbs suspended under a 265 sq. ft. 7-cell )

These days it seems common enough for people to be scared away from jumping because their "parachute is too slow" or their "wing loading is too low".

I don't want people to hurt themselves, nor am I saying that anyone should be airborne during gust fronts or other extreme conditions.

But I do want to say that it is quite possible to consider jumping a slow canopy in higher winds to be normal.

One has to pay more attention, both to the spot and canopy flight, and it is less fun than in low winds. Yet "being pushed backwards" by the wind isn't necessarily something terrible.

Wind speed typically decreases near the ground, so even if backing up significantly at 200', one might only be backing up very slightly at 50', and come down essentially vertical for the actual landing. Admittedly if one is actually still moving backwards more than very slowly right at landing, it does make landing injury more possible.

I wonder if there was more acceptance of jumping with larger canopies in high winds, back in the 1980s when when 200 or 220 sq ft canopies were normal, well before everyone expected to be able to penetrate through any wind under small ZP canopies.

[tdog 0]

Hey - I have about 1000 jumps at Mile Hi in the last few years, every month of the year. I have jumped in the winter winds and snow and summer heat and thermals.

You have very little to worry about as the winds don't pick up THAT bad normally... If you watch the trend before you get on the plane, and get a windcheck on the plane, you won't be surprised... That often at least.

However, while others gave you a lot of general stuff - here is the lowdown for Mile Hi.

The prevailing wind directions are east and west, which happen to line up with the runway. This is good because the "outs" to the east and west are better than the north "outs".

If you are on the north side of the runway - and you are not making it over the hangars and runway - you have to make your "plan B" decision MUCH higher. I have seen very few people land off on this side of the airport, but those who tried to land on the airport grounds had a tricky dangerous landing. Those who turned around, went with the wind, and were pushed over to the fields or even the golf course to the north and northeast, landed safe.

When stuggling to get back on the north, you have to know that the best landing area is BEHIND YOU... Turn around, go with the wind, and land in the open fields. The areas along the taxi way and hangars are not good.

South you are fine. Lots of fields. East and West you are fine too. Here you can make your decisions of where to land lower, because there is no runway to cross, so as long as you avoid fences and ditches.


So... My personal strategy is to head for the center of the landing area ASAP, especially when I am North, so I can start getting thru any winds. If I can't get over the runway by 1000, turn around at 1500 feet... This comes from landing on the taxiway once when I was around 50 jumps.

Then, I set up my normal landing pattern...

Ok, so on high wind days - where are the object based turbulance? Well the hangars are not a good place to hang around, that is for sure..


If you want canopy coaching, Jimmy T and some others at the DZ will be able to help you out on rears vs fronts vs hanging in brakes - etc.


P.S. a simple way to know what the winds are doing on the ground - for a low time jumper - is watch the canopies of the others who land before you. How much penetration did they have? Did their canopy fall on their head or drag them? This is how I tell wind speed as I am setting up my own landing.

Last but not least. The art of collapsing a canopy after you land is an important one. You need to run as fast as you can towards the canopy while pulling in one brake line (or any one line preferably on the rear riser) until you have fabric in your hand... If you pull back on it, you will lose the battle every time.

This seems easy until the first time you are running towards the runway and your mind is thinking, "pull the canopy away from the runway" but it is counterintuitive - you need to get the canopy collapsed and in your hand, and the way to do that is to get line tension off the fabric.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote

4) Be VERY careful landing downwind of obstacles. Stronger wind = more turbulence. Make sure you use the 10x rule - if a tree is 10 feet tall land at least 100 feet away from it. 200 feet is even safer.

This is one point that cannot be stressed enough, IMO.

NOT landing downwind of obstacles has always been my going "Plan A" for landing in windy conditions for a long long time now. Basically because of what I was told by the experienced folk when I was coming up and from what I've experienced and observed along the way since then. In otherwords, if the winds are up, my plan is to set-up and land in an open area that is very much well away from being downwind of an obstacle... even if it means walking further or waiting for a ride.

Failing not being able to land away from being downwind of an obstacle... get as far downwind as possible from it, would be my 2 cents and be ready to PLF... I've seen lots of folks find that "elevator shaft" when landing downwind of an obstacle... flare their canopy for all their worth and it do nothing to arrest the descent rate, just only change the attitidue of the canopy and hammer in... sometimes with just bumps, bruises and a dirty jumpsuit/rig... sometimes with broken bones.

I too have used the "cut-away once on the ground" technique to keep from getting drug or to not have to deal with trying to collaps a hundred plus square feet of nylon and lines once on the ground.

I realize that it doesn't help much if you're already under canopy and the winds come up... but very rarely does it go from calm to 30mph in the space of load with no evidence available prior to a keen observer... but one thing that I was told as a newb that helped me out and that I try to pass on is, if you're at the DZ looking at the wind meter trying to decide if you want to go up or not is to add 7mph of windspeed to what its doing "now" and decide if you'd like to be landing your main (or reserve) on (or off) the DZ in "that" wind-speed and then decided whether to manifest or not... just something to think about... others may think differently.

Oh I forgot to cite this article.
High Wind Landings

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Rooky 0]

The 2nd article you quoted (high wind landings by Jan Meyer) says

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Winds over large objects generate turbulence that can be significant as far away as 10 times the object's length.

The picture shows D as width of obstacle accordingly.

Is this a different "theory" or simply a mistake?
I was always told "10 to 12 times of obstacles hight". Never heard this one.
Could someone explain, please?

Thnx, Martin

[dharma1976 0]

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People have been killed being dragged after a safe landing.

I think people have been covered in poop after a safe landing too (aka picked up and over manifest by dust devil and into porta potties)

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.