When is it rape?

[rhino 0]

I've got an idea??

Want to make rights equal??

A woman has the right to an abortion..

A man should have the right in the first 60 days of her pregnancy to say "I'm not going to do this. I am not ready and you cannot force me. I'm out!"

Men should have the option "if we are equal" to opt out of that responsability for life in the same way a woman can.

It is her body..

It is his life as well..

Even the scale why don't we??

You sign that doc in the first 60 days and your life long responsability is gone. So are your privelages as the parent.

WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS YOU SAY!!! Good question.. Abortion to be or not to be? Right now it's legal. So should be an option for men to make a decision equal or close to" to the decision the woman makes.

I have seen women get pregnant simply to keep her hooks in a man. To violate his life, privacy and what not. I have seen EVIL shit where that power "to have or not to have the baby" is concerned.

It is by no means equal.. And I challenge ANYONE to look up the statistics and compare how many men don't pay child support vs how many women don't.. The answer will probably suprise you..


Rhino

[wmw999 2,167]

The rest of my post says that kids should be taught to think about saying NO so that they're ready to do it. I don't think "I have to go home" is adequate to say you really really want to quit right now. Honest.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Just trying to show why saying "no" could be scary to a 14-year-old girl. Stupid, yes. But so are most 14-year-olds.

But if kids don't think about what saying no means before they have to say it, then they have to think about it then, and they'll hit the stumbling block of "what will they say about me later" (yes, they should have thought of that before), and not be as clear.

If a reasonably smart kid has thought of the consequences of what they're doing when there's no pressure, they're less likely to buckle under pressure. And it's up to parents and schools to get them to think about it ahead of time, because schools and parents damn sure aren't there when kids are making these decisions.

Wendy W.
(who managed to get no boys pregnant when she was in her wild-oat sowing days)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhillyKev 0]

Men do have the option to opt out of the responsibility. It's called a condom.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

if i were this teenager and all she said to me was, "i have to go home" i would think she wants me to hurry up! then i would get pissed off at my friend b/c he used most all the action up for himself!!!!!!!! that sorry bastard, see if i ever help him get a chick naked again!!!!!!!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[rhino 0]

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Men do have the option to opt out of the responsibility. It's called a condom.

Aside from a not screwing, rubbers breaking "they do", not using one and accidents happening.. LOL

Rhino

[billvon 2,469]

>A man should have the right in the first 60 days of her pregnancy to
> say "I'm not going to do this. I am not ready and you cannot force
> me. I'm out!"

If men had nothing to do with making that baby I'd agree. However, if you take part in creating a life, you're obligated to deal with the consequences. If you don't want to take that risk, don't have sex - or only have sex with someone you _know_ thinks like you do.

>It is by no means equal.

Correct, but that's because men don't get pregnant. The laws on abortion and parenthood can not be equal for that reason. Men can't get abortions.

[happythoughts 0]

I understand what everyone has been saying. People (adults included not just mixed-up 14yo kids) should say NO when they mean it. I agree with that.

That is not my point. My point is that the law says that they don't have to. They can say nothing/anything and guys can be convicted of rape. They can consent, change their mind and not tell the guy clearly, and the guy goes to jail. That law is wrong.

What is next? Classes on body-language? "Well class... if her arms are crossed, then she MAY be 'pensive'..."

[quade 3]

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If you don't want to take that risk, don't have sex - or only have sex with someone you _know_ thinks like you do.

Or go get snipped.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jumperconway 0]

I think this article gives the fullest explanation of what was heard in the trial much more than the abbreviated first version. This at least clears some misconceptions from the first story. Please take the time to read. This makes arguing views on the first story, totally hypothetical.
Trying not to step on toes here,just trying to see the facts!



http://www.metnews.com/articles/john010703.htm

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Yep. Maybe it's just as important to teach women "say no when you mean no" as it is to teach men "no means no."

If Nancy Regan isn't busy, maybe we can start another "Just Say No" campaign?

All joking aside, yea, that would be a good idea. It seems like this is necessary since common sense appears to be a failure at this point and time.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[wmw999 2,167]

Thanks for posting that. It does add more facts. Doesn't change the worth of the discussion, but there was definitely more to the story.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhillyKev 0]

I don't know if this article is any more accurate than the first. I'd have to read the actual transcript to have a valid opinion on the actual case. But I think my points regarding the original assumption based on the first article are still valid. Based solely on this new article, though, I'd say he was guilty.

[freefallfreak 0]

After reading all of this, I've reached a decision. I won't play this game. This is really a fearful point for some people, women included, and if forwarned is forarmed, I'll leave the ones posting negatively alone. I don't want to take a chance on some crazy woman screaming rape cause she can't handle what she started/participated in.

FFF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[jumperconway 0]

For those that didn't do the clicky thing. From the trial.




The complainant, Laura T., was 17 years old at the time of the March 2000 incident. She acknowledged that she willingly visited
John at his house and allowed John and his friend Juan G. to take off her clothes and fondle her.
But she became upset, she said, when Juan got on top of her and tried to have intercourse. When his condom fell off, she said, she
told him “maybe it’s a sign we shouldn’t be doing this,” and he said “fine” and left the room.
After that, she testified, John came in and told her he really cared about her and Juan didn’t. John told her she was “really beautiful,”
and that he wanted her to be his girlfriend. They kissed, she said, before he rolled on top of her and began to attempt intercourse.
Laura said she tried to get him to stop, insisting several times that she had to go home, but that John “just stayed inside of me and
kept like basically forcing it on me.” He persisted, she said, for several minutes, saying “just give me a minute” and “give me some
time” before heeding her pleas to stop.

[jumperconway 0]

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I don't know if this article is any more accurate than the first. I'd have to read the actual transcript to have a valid opinion on the actual case. But I think my points regarding the original assumption based on the first article are still valid. Based solely on this new article, though, I'd say he was guilty.

I would have to agree, although I'm still not convinced that the first guy should have been charged. I think that it clarified that she continued to try to stop him. I still think that had she been absolutely clear in saying "stop now", he probably would have stopped,just a guess

[PhillyKev 0]

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From the trial.

Actually, that's not from the trial, that's from Metropolitan News Enterprise (whatever that is). Only the words in quotes are "from the trial" and they could quite possibly be quoted out of context.

[freefallfreak 0]

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You knew this and kept quiet about it??

Yes and no. They questioned all the employees and only wanted to know our personal experiences with the said guy. I said I'd NEVER had any issues with him. I also said I was present for one of the issues the girl's were claiming and it didn't happen that way. But they claimed several other things and unfortunately it was three girls against one and I wasn't there full-time.

So, now there is a guy walking around, with a stain on his work record, maybe with small children and a wife that he may not be able to support - all because three witches lied and no one would tell the whole truth?? My most feverant hope is that he finds this thread and can use it to sue the sh*t out of that company and the witches that did this. Of course, that isn't the way it will work out, tho, is it? Nope, some guy is probably now suffering the pain of inability to provide for family...Sad, huh?? Maybe the next time (and there is always a next time) someone will have the honesty and intestinal fortitude to stand up and say "This is wrong".

FFF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[rhino 0]

He said she said bullshit.. I almost think that in order for something to be evidence it should have to be video or audio tape..

Words have no meaning any more. Truth or lie?? No way to know? But if it is on tape??!!

AH HA!!!

Rhino

[dkearns 0]

That is what I was thinking. No more sex in CA without a camera and a written document stating what the definition of sex is and any associated stop words are. Plus a little section about the word stop as used during sex. Fat fuckin chance of getting me in CA any who since I'm a carnivore and all there is there is nuts and fruits.

[rhino 0]

LOL

[freefallfreak 0]

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Fat fuckin chance of getting me in CA any who since I'm a carnivore and all there is there is nuts and fruits.

LOL...

FFF

If it were truly the thought that counted, more women would be pregnant.

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[billvon 2,469]

>Fat fuckin chance of getting me in CA any who since I'm a carnivore
> and all there is there is nuts and fruits.

Thank god! There are enough people here.

[Iezyka 0]

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Changing your mind halfway through "the act" is really confusing. Someone should explain to little girls that once you have aroused a man beyond a certain point, it is extremely difficult to stop.
Does that mean you can change your mind ten seconds after leaving the airplane and get a full refund?

Do any guys agree on this?? God, I get scared by posts like this, Guess I need to have a weapon I can reach from my bed. Or a button I could press for a bodyguard to come and save me. Or would it be a crime to stop an aroused man from having sex with me if I don´t want to have sex with him anymore??

I think someone should explain to little boys, that there is a reason why someone wants to stop: Maybe it is boring, or painful, or done the wrong way for this woman. If the boys succeeded in turning the woman off completely, they have to accept that she might want to stop. There are more interesting things to do than having unpleasant sex. For example reading a book. Masturbate. Or find someone to have great sex with.

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If she starts kicking and screaming at you, you might decide to get the fuck away from her because she is seriously unstable, but you should stop. I agree with that. But she has to start kicking and screaming.

It is terrible that some women and men lie and say they have been raped when they actually wanted to have sex, or didn´t show clearly that they didn´t want to. Using one of the worst crimes to hurt someone else is really mean, and causes problems for those who have been raped for real.

BUT every person should be smart enough to stop when the other person tell them to stop. I shouldn´t have to kick or scream to get a man off me if if I change my mind. If I say "stop, I don´t want to do this anymore, get off me NOW", it should be enough. Or if I push him away and try to get out of there.

Anything after this point, or any sex where I´m unconscious, threaten, or held down by violence is rape to me:
If I scream or kick, I´m not telling the man to stop having sex with me, I´m telling him to stop raping me.

[TomAiello 25]

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...Actually, that's not from the trial...

Ok, how about, from the California Supreme Court decision statement of facts?
Text of Decision
Facts of the case are stated on pages 2-5.
Maybe we all ought to have a look at the actual decision, rather than reading the media reports, then complaining that the media reports are innacurate/biased/misleading.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,469]

>Someone should explain to little girls that once you have aroused a
> man beyond a certain point, it is extremely difficult to stop.
---------------
>Do any guys agree on this??

I definitely don't. If someone says to stop, then you stop. If you can't control yourself, then that's a problem one should figure out how to deal with _before_ getting into bed with someone else.

Like someone else said, talking about this beforehand is critical. If there are men out there who simply can't control themselves, then the time to find this out is _before_ the woman asks him to stop. If they talk beforehand, and either person says "once I start I can't always stop" then the other person can decide if he or she wants to take that risk.