Student, 12 jumps, 1 cutaway

[danielcroft 2]

So, I had my first cutaway at 12 jumps this past weekend. I don't have my log book in front of me right now so I may forget some details but I'd be interested in some advice or theories or whatever. Apologies for the essay.

Jumping at the ranch, 12th jump, first jump on a 200 pilot (I think it's a pilot anyway). I've jumped mostly 280s, 260 once & 240 once too. I've stood up my last few landings. My first this year was on the 260, I landed out & stood it up. Then stood up a couple on 280s & then one on the 240. All these were doing my own flare (not listening to the radio). I've got a little over an hour in the tunnel & I've done Brian Germain's canopy course, although, I didn't get to jump thanks to the weather.

I finally get the chance (and comfort) to jump the 200 and I was excited to fly a more responsive canopy. Paid for the solo & got manifested. Jumped on the otter after chatting to a couple of really nice people in the loading area. They were with me on the plane going out after me. Nice enough to help me with the spot too (thanks guys!).

Out at ~13.5 stable at a bit over 12. Tried some loops (back is ugly, front is clean), barrel roll, 360s. Basically working up to my A check dive. I'm also trying cupping to work on levels, bit unstable but ok. Very happy with skydive as I'm flying now as opposed to just falling. :D

Wave at 5 & pull (very slow reach, hold pull position for a short time to be stable), under canopy by 4k. Square, stable, slider is down, I see my friends from the plane free falling in front of me so I rear riser to the right. Unstow, & check steer-ability I'm good, I loosen my chest strap. Radio tells me to make a left 90 for ID, then a right 90 then a left 180. By then the radio sees me and I'm good to play.

I initiate a deep right hand toggle turn, I'm in the turn and feel like I've made at least 90 degrees. I'm looking at the canopy and I see it kind of stop on the right and then it spins into 5 to 10 twists (to the right). I'm spinning & feel like I'm getting faster. I'm getting whipped out to the side a little. I look at the lines and decide I'm really not going to be able to deal with it so I chop. I wait what seems like seconds without anything seeming to happen (I checked that my RSL was attached before I put the rig on) and then pull the reserve (radio guy is a friend of mine, says it was very fast). SSSS reserve is good, I'm pissed off. Look over my shoulder to see the main floating away behind me (probably staying still). I was definitely above 1500 when I was under the reserve, radio guy thought it was probably 1800/1900. I didn't even look at my alti until after I was under the reserve. Fly my pattern (with a little help) & then stand up the landing.

My friends from the plane said they looked over at me & saw everything good, looked back and I was spinning with my legs getting whipped out to the side. They didn't see what happened and I was too high for people on the ground to figure it out too. As I was flying to my pattern, I noticed that the cutaway handle was wrapped around my chest strap. As I was folding up the canopy on the ground I discovered that the reserve handle hadn't come all the way out & I still had that too. Not through skill or presence of mind, just dumb luck. ;) Honestly didn't care about any of it except getting my reserve out.

Some things people have suggested:
Too deep on toggles -> stall.
Gust of wind -> collapse
Initiate or end turn too quickly causing the twist.

I honestly don't recall letting up on the toggle but I may have. I was in the turn going fine when the canopy spun up. I've had a couple of people talk to me about being more smooth with inputs which I will take on board.

I jumped a 220 twice afterwards and stood up both of those landings (own flare although my pattern sucked on the second). I was a fair bit more tentative under canopy for obvious reasons. I'm most pissed off because I don't really know why it happened. Student canopies are set up with long brake lines so that they're not likely to stall so I'm confused.

[Gato 0]

Perhaps you held a deep (abrupt?) toggle turn for too long?

The Pilot is semi-elliptical and SUBSTANTIALLY smaller than anything you've jumped yet. Did your instructor/friend tell you it would be OK for you to do a 40 sq.ft. downsize at 14 jumps?

I'm a noob, as well, and I'm pretty sure one of my instructors would freak out over the mere suggestion of a drastic downsize like that, especially to a different planform on the same jump.

Having said all that, I'm really glad you're OK, and you kept your head on a swivel.

T.I.N.S.

[danielcroft 2]

I weigh about 155 maybe 170/180 with gear on. I've been landing well on larger canopies without help and a couple of friends (who happen to be coaches) who have seen me land said I'd be fine on the 200. The thing I hadn't considered is that I need to fly the canopies differently so in that sense, if that's what caused the problem then yeah, I perhaps shouldn't have been flying the 200. On speaking to my instructor (Hi!) the suggestion wasn't made that I'd downsized to quickly. Maybe that could explain it though. The thing that concerns me is that we're repeatedly told that the student canopies have extra long brake lines so we don't stall them so I don't understand how I could have stalled it. If I turned to quickly, how did I manage a stable turn for a while before it spun up?

I'm not saying you'd know (thanks for the reply btw :) ), just confused by the incident.

[NickDG 23]

At 12 jumps you shouldn't be jumping a semi-kinda-sorta, almost elliptical canopy of any sort. Over the course of the next fifty jumps you are going to make mistakes. You want to make those mistakes while jumping a large barge.

This is not your fault.

Keep in mind there are many very experienced jumpers in the world who won't touch eliptical canopies. Too bad you weren't given the time to learn enough to make that decision for yourself . . .

NickD

[faulknerwn 36]

What I've seen many rookies do is get used to spiraling aggressive on student canopies, and then when they transition to "non-student" canopies spiral like they were used to and spin themselves into twists.

Our rental gear is still square canopies, much more docile than the Pilot, and they have always been able to kick out of them. The Pilot I'm quite sure was a far more aggressive canopy than the bigger ones you were used to, and I suspect that you were just too aggressive on the controls.

A lot less toggle input on the Pilot will give you a more radical spin than on student canopies.

[in2jumping 0]

Sounds like you spun the canopy into line twists with a aggressive toggle turn. Good thing you where up high and not down low when this happened. On jump number 10 I spun a 320 sqf canopy up into line twists with a aggressive quick toggle turn, I was up high 4k feet and was able to quickly kick them out,

[Chubba 0]

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What I've seen many rookies do is get used to spiraling aggressive on student canopies, and then when they transition to "non-student" canopies spiral like they were used to and spin themselves into twists.

Thanks for the warning... I'm ~150 exit weight and flying a 240 and I spiral like a madman to lose altitude... didn't even realise that could turn into a malfunction on smaller canopies.

[danielcroft 2]

I'm going to have to check if it's actually a pilot, I'm just going off memory here.

I still don't get how I would have spun it up half way though a turn. My body was already traveling in the direction of the turn and everything felt stable when it spun up.

Not saying I didn't cause this, just don't understand the mechanics of a canopy that's seemingly flying happily & then suddenly spinning up.

[hackish 8]

Bear in mind that I'm not an instructor - however despite my low jump numbers I have expended considerable energy on studying all I could find about the mechanics and aerodynamics of parachutes.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that you have to ease off an aggressive toggle input somewhat slowly. If you suddenly lift a toggle you can induce lineslack and it can cause the canopy to wind up. I have stalled a sabre2-170 into linetwists a few times. Freaks me out every time... Brian Germain's book has some good advice on this stuff.

-Michael

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks Michael, and everyone else, I appreciate the comments.

I've read Brian's book and, as I mentioned, I've done his canopy class. I actually know Brian a bit too (such a good person). I guess my confusion stems from me thinking that I had initiated the turn, everything was good, I didn't do anything else & the canopy spun. I feel like the turn in was not connected to the spin & that I didn't release the toggle.

I know you guys weren't there and that memory is not infallible (mine certainly isn't) but that's the root of my confusion. I've definitely taken on board the concept of smoother inputs and that less input is required for smaller canopies.

BTW, it was a happy ending all around, the main was found and re-attached to the rig. I think there'll be a rematch at some point. ;) A little more respectful one of course.

[DougH 270]

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I'm going to have to check if it's actually a pilot, I'm just going off memory here.

I don't believe that aerodyne makes a 200 Pilot. I thought that the upper sizing is 210, 188, 168...

Let me don my flame suit for this! Nick this post is more directed at you, do you really think we should have students flying sky barges for 50+ jumps? Looking at all of the latest canopy fatalities and injuries and it points to experinced jumpers with tiny little canopies, that are mostly current, with large numbers of jumps.

I am not an instructor, but I don't find a Pilot loaded at .85 (estimating using an exit weight of 180 under a pilot 210) isn't an overly aggresive canopy selection if it is paired with a proper briefing. They are docile canopies with short recovery arcs, although technically they are semi elipticals. I flew one early in my student progression.

It may have been to early for this jumper, but I don't think that you can keep new jumpers on large student canopies for 50 jumps. And if you do what is the benifit? They develop poor canopy habits and they have less ability to transition to the canopies that they will ultimately end up jumping. I came from a dropzone that traditionally was more agressive with canopy selection, we also had a tight landing area that demanded good canopy flight. There was a noticable difference in canopy skills of the students who learned there, versus some of the dropzones where I jump that keep their students on radio for a long time, have them fly very large very lightly loaded canopies, into very large landing areas that do not demand accuracy on every jump.

What I see lacking here is instructors properly explaining that the canopy needs to be flown differently then the sky barges you have jumped before.

You need to build into a deep toggle turn slowly, Brian goes over this in his book and I bet in his seminar. When you yank down a toggle fast the canopy can get ahead of your body and spin up as you experinced. If you gradually apply the toggle pressure and build into a hard turn the canopy you reduce the risk of turning yourself into line twists. Of course you can allways give too much input and stall out that side of the canopy, which is why if you want to play and spiral you need to do it high enough to cutaway, out of the pattern, and away from other canopies.

Keep line tension, in canopy flight it is life; don't go around yanking the toggles around like a monkey you are flying a wing after all.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[dugout 0]

Did it look something like this?
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6847

[scotts 0]

Dan, IIRC the Ranch uses navigator canopies for students.

This should also give you incentive to know exactly what kind of gear it is that you're jumping.


Kentucky

[danielcroft 2]

That's it, they're navigators. Lol. Thanks Kentucky.

You're right, I should pay more attention to that stuff. I've been a little overwhelmed with all the things that you "need" to do. Brian's canopy course was awesome but I'm probably trying to do a little too much given my low jump numbers. I don't feel like the choice to jump the 200 was a bad one in spite of the mal. I just didn't understand the different inputs required. People talk about landing & flare when referring to wing loadings & canopy sizes but I guess I didn't put the information together myself until my friend on the radio said after the mal that smaller canopies require smaller inputs. It was probably said but now that I have a very good example of the results I'm more receptive to the message. ;)

That video looks pretty close to what happened but I don't remember the weird flip under that that guy did just before he spun up. I was looking at the canopy when it happened and I felt as though it was pretty stable, spun & then went a bit crazy. I wish I had video. Honestly, who knows, at this point I'm never getting to the bottom of it. The lesson I'm taking away is that I caused line twists. There may have been a gust of wind, the brake lines may have been too short. Point is, what I did caused the problem. I'm going to treat my canopies with more respect & practice the coordinated turns that Brian talks about rather than deep toggle turns.

I saved my own life 4 times in 3 jumps, I'm ok with that. :D

[jerm 0]

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At 12 jumps you shouldn't be jumping a semi-kinda-sorta, almost elliptical canopy of any sort. Over the course of the next fifty jumps you are going to make mistakes. You want to make those mistakes while jumping a large barge.

like a navigator? a navigator is basically just a big Silhouette (elliptical wing.. i think moreso than a pilot) with tweaked line trim and dacron. You've been around long enough to know there's more to a canopy than the planform.

Moreover, IIRC once upon a time people thought square parachutes were too dangerous for students, and there were experience requirements to get your hands on one. Sure they CAN be too dangerous for students, but they don't have to be. An underloaded Pilot is not a performance canopy.

In this case, however, he was jumping a Navigator 200.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[Orange1 0]

I jumped a pilot (210, very light WL) at probably around 20 or 25 jumps. Although I had been briefed on the difference in sport vs student canopies, it didn't prepare for me how fast the canopy responded vs the student canopies. Since then I always take things slowly moving to either new size or new make of canopy.

To be honest I'm a bit more concerned about a couple of other comments in your post.

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I look at the lines and decide I'm really not going to be able to deal with it so I chop. I wait what seems like seconds without anything seeming to happen (I checked that my RSL was attached before I put the rig on) and then pull the reserve .

Well done for pulling the reserve, but why did you wait? Surely your EPs are pull red, pull silver with no "wait for the RSL" inbetween?

I'm also a bit concerned about the bit where you say

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I see my friends from the plane free falling in front of me so I rear riser to the right.

How far in front of you were they? Were they out before or after you? I'm not deducing anything from "in front" as you presumably did not hold one heading all the way through the jump - but does the fact that they helped with you with the spot mean you were out first? Did they know you were opening high? Did they just look close but there was adequate separation, or wasn't there adequate separation?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[billvon 2,400]

>I am not an instructor, but I don't find a Pilot loaded at .85 (estimating
> using an exit weight of 180 under a pilot 210) isn't an overly aggresive
>canopy selection if it is paired with a proper briefing.

It's like anything else. If you get good training, you can jump such a loading at jump 12. If all you get is a "briefing" along the lines of "don't stall it, don't flare too high, don't turn too hard" then you're likely to have problems of the type listed here.

It is absolutely true that you can train students to fly high performance canopies early. It is NOT true that since some schools do this, other schools can do this with a briefing.

[DougH 270]

I agree with you Billvon, I think we only differ on the use of the word briefing. I was not talking about the 5 minute speach that I have heard before that is mainly made up of "do some practice flares up high". Maybe I should have said lesson, or coaching session instead.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[yamtx73 0]

When I went from a student canopy to a sport one I was told to do some practice flares up high and to be careful on the turns because I could spin it up into line twists... I paid attention!

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[danielcroft 2]

I was confused actually. At the time I didn't think it was a big deal or even realize but I think I was expecting something to happen in terms of a chute appearing. When it didn't, I pulled the reserve. I wasn't thinking RSL at the time I think I was associating the cut away handle with my PC which is bad obviously. The fact that I paused for what ended up being maybe half a second and then went for the reserve shows I was paying attention at least. The other odd thing was that I've been trained in two hands each side EPs but I actually went 1 hand each side, I don't know why but now I think I need to practice the way that's natural to me.

My friends on the plane exited after me. I wasn't first out we were last out of the otter. They knew I was pulling at 5k, so were they (she was trying out a Safire 149 IIRC).

For the record, just before it spun up I remember seeing the inside (right) of the canopy basically stop. It didn't collapse but it definitely didn't look normal.

[LongWayToFall 0]

I made my first jump on my new rig the other day, which is a 210 PD 9cell. I have been using a sabre2 210 for a long time, and have also jumped a 190 (unknown make). On that first jump on the new rig, I got out last and pulled at 8-8.5k so I would have time to fly the canopy and get used to it before landing. Right after opening and canopy check, I stabbed a toggle like I am used to, and it did the same thing, spun up and I had spinning line twists. I kicked out of it in about 500ft, and didn't worry too much about it because I was at a high altitude, but I sure was thinking about cutting away. New canopies respond in new ways, and it takes time to adjust. Pay attention to your altitude, and if you are not under a landable parachute at your decision altitude, cut away. You did good and survived to jump another day, but anytime you jump a new canopy you need to be extra heads up. I didn't think that an old school square parachute would be as responsive as it was, and it bit me, I learned allot. Do what your instructors say!! is all I can tell you

[yoink 321]

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Out at ~13.5 stable at a bit over 12.

Better hope you don't need to get out low anytime soon...

Might be worth working on your stability out of the door for a few jumps.

[Chubba 0]

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Better hope you don't need to get out low anytime soon...

Might be worth working on your stability out of the door for a few jumps.

Yeah isn't 1.5k from exit nearly like 12 - 13 seconds?

Yikes

I got terrible exits, but I'm always on my belly and stable within like 3 seconds.

[danielcroft 2]

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*snip*
New canopies respond in new ways, and it takes time to adjust. Pay attention to your altitude, and if you are not under a landable parachute at your decision altitude, cut away.
*snip*
I didn't think that an old school square parachute would be as responsive as it was, and it bit me, I learned allot. Do what your instructors say!! is all I can tell you

You're absolutely right, this is what I didn't do but will in future.

As for the stable altitude comments, what kind of exits are you doing to be stable in 3 seconds and what do you mean stable. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology but what I mean is that I'm in a normal free fall and off "the hill" totally stable and looking at my alti for the first time at like 12/12.5. I spoke to one of my coaches who said that I'm stable right away. I'm not flipping or twisting or anything silly like that. For the record, I've been doing diving exits and am now pretty good at those & will be moving on to floating exits (which kind of scare me for some stupid reason). I could easily pitch in an emergency situation well before I normally check my alti.

[Orange1 0]

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My friends on the plane exited after me. I wasn't first out we were last out of the otter. They knew I was pulling at 5k, so were they (she was trying out a Safire 149 IIRC).

Sorry to harp on about this, but is this the same person you saw freefalling in front of you? i.o.w she said she was pulling at 5K but evidently didn't?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.