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bigway

Overloading Reserve

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Just curious.
I have a customer who has purchased a system with a 129 qft main and a 129 sqft reserve.
Now he 129sqft reserve has a max exit weight of 78 kgs (Jumper +gear + clothing).
Going form the jumpers order form he weighs 85kgs in clothes alone.

Now, I imagine this is a regular occurance to be honest with those who jump small reserves. Otherwise, all those jumping 109 reserves must all weigh about 50kgs (110lbs), and i doubt that is the case.

So what i want to know (yes as a distributor, i am also learning every day) is it illegal in the USA to jump a reserve that is overloaded with exit weight?
How do DZO's or CSO's let this et past them? Are they required by ops to ground the jumper? Is there a blind eye to this?
Or
Is this actually allowed and the max exit weight just a 'suggestion'?

Look forward to some replies and some honest anonymous poll results.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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This is an Icarus Reserve,right?
If so, look at page 13 of the manual

"According to the US FAA certification limits, it is forbidden to jump with this parachute with an
exit weight exceeding 255 lbs (116kg)".

blue skies
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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Sorry, I dont have a manual. Yes it is an Icarus reserve 129.
The max exit weight is 78 kgs.
So, how can it be TSO'd to 116kgs?

Are you sure you are not talking about a larger size icarus reserve?

219, to 279 reserve that is max weight of 116kgs?

You will ntoice i am talking about the 129 that has a max loading at 78kgs, not the 219 that has a max loading at 116kgs.
http://www.square1.com/Manufacturers/Square1/p1649.asp


Thanks anyway though.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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It also says in the manual that it is NOT allowed to be jumped at an exit rate exceding 1.3 wing loading.

So back to my original question, Are people allowed to jump reserves with such high wingloadings and are people allowed to jump the icarus reserve say the 129 with a weight that is over the max allowed on the icarus table?

Can someone get away with jumping a icarus reserve 129 with an exit weight of 95kgs?


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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I have no answer for you, sorry. Icarus could have avoided this confusion by publishing "max" (aka certified) and "max recommended" suspended weights. I don't know what the legal status of their max suspended weight as currently published is.

10.3, 10.5, 10.6 and 10.7 are contradicting each other. Test weight should be more than certified weight, they are rather adamant their max exit weight is an absolute limit but the legal limit seems to be 116 kg.

But note there is space for a max weight on the warning label. I'd take that as the legal limit, regardless of what's in the manual. I actually expect Icarus to write their own idea of the max susp weight in there, and I actually expect to be wrong on the conservative side of legal that way.
Johan.
I am. I think.

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I believe the certifying tests for reserves is done to make sure it does not blow up on opening and handles well in flight. landing it safely when overloaded takes skill and if you are passed out that skill will not help you. Personally, I would love to up size my reserve with one with the low bulk material. at this point in time that, would be a speed 2000 from germany.

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that, would be a speed 2000 from germany.



Just to use it as an example, the same semantic issues come up with it --
The Speed reserves are certified to 254 lbs but the maximum suspended weights (to "never exceed") are lower, e.g. 158 lbs for the 120 size.

So again, we have the issue whether (in FAA-land or elsewhere) one has to follow the certification limits or ALL manufacturer's instructions. The manual also says to store the canopy in a cool dark place, not over 20C. So is an FAA rigger liable to lose his rating if his shop is any warmer?

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>So what i want to know (yes as a distributor, i am also learning
>every day) is it illegal in the USA to jump a reserve that is
>overloaded with exit weight?

Technically yes.

>How do DZO's or CSO's let this et past them?

The only time any serious checking gets done is when gear is rented or provided (i.e. students) at least at Perris. Beyond that it's up to the jumper. DZO's typically just check packing data cards to make sure the rig (specifically reserve and H/C) is maintained and in-date.

(Associated question - is it illegal to go head down with a reserve tested to only 130kts?)

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If the usder exceeds Icarus maximum suspended weights, he is also exceeding American Federal Air Regulations, because FARS always loop back to: "... in accordance with manufacturer's instructions."

Whether FARS apply in your country may be the subject of rousing debate, but the bottom line is:"Exceed manufacturers' recommendations at your peril."

This reminds me of a case where a skydiver was over-weight, over-speed and unstable when he scared his Cypres. He got angry when his Raven Dash M tore and was contemplating suing Precision Aerodynamics until some one reminded him that he was a commercial pilot and some one was bound to ask in court "Why did you knowingly exceed the placarded weight?"
He quietly dropped the lawsuit.

If you load a reserve more than the manufacturer's recommendations, you will stand alone in court.

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Hi Gary,

First & most importantly, I do not speak for the US FAA. Nor does anyone else who has posted in reply.

IMO ( and I was on the TSO committee at the time ),the weight that it was certificated for is a 'floor' so that no component is certificated below this 'floor' weight & speed. This is so that you ( the unsuspecting customer ) do not get some doily that is certificated for ~33 lbs at ~27 knots. :S

The mfr then can always say 'Weight not to exceed XXX lbs.' Again, IMO this is not binding and a user can load it up to the certificated weight(s). Others may disagree with me.

But as Rob says, if you exceed the mfr's 'limitations' you will stand alone in court.

I spent 30 + yrs working for the US gov't & ( hopefully ) I know a little more about their thinking than the average guy walking down the street.

As for 'standing alone in court,' well, the US courts usually take a 'good' look when people do stupid things.

I have always taken the position that I will give you ( the person asking ) my best recommendation; after that, I am not your keeper.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Your poll does not make sense to me; could you explain it further? I never said that I could read the English language perfectly. :P

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I dont know, the poll was a quick one.

OK, so here is the real situation and why I have suddenly been asking about this..... You guys deserve it because of the decent answers that have been given.

I have just purchase a bunch of demo rigs, only two of them are full rigs with reserves etc, the rest get loaned out with the customers stock reserve and cypres and my demo container and demo mains.

Now, I wanted to put a Optimum 143 into the V308 with a safire 129, as this demo rig i would keep at the dz and i would use it as my personal rig as well.
However, I am warned by UPT that it will be very tight and they went as far to more or less tell me that I shouldnt go for this combination, so I of course had to then decide between a PD 126 or a smart 120 or a Icarus reserve 129. I went with the 129, cause it is the largest and it packs the smallest.

So the reserve arrived, personally I dont mind jumping a 130 reserve, however i then look at the packing card and it shows a maximum weight of 78kgs. and i think WTF!!.
I then go into my records and realise I have just delivered a customer a 129 icarus reserve as well. So I pull his Micron file and i relaise that he is heavier than me.
I then posted here to find out what I should do about my customer, who I am writing an email to now.

So the customer is the concern as instantly i realise there is no way in hell I am going to use this reserve as things are going well at the moment after a few years very hard work and I aint going to have you wankers reading about me in the incidents section.

So right now i am waiting to see what the customer has to say, but with the reserve I have gone and purchased to use in a demo rig for myself and others, I am not going to be letting anyone overload a reserve on my kit during my watch. So if anyone would like to swap a Icarus reserve 129, brand spanking new, like a week old for either a PD 126 (used of course) or a Optimum 143 and i will give some cash, or a Micro raven 135 and you can give me some cash, then someone is going to get a hell of a deal.
I am all up for swapping this outright for a PD 126 that is three or four years old, or if someone wants to pick up a very cheap reserve, then fast sale appreciated.

This is not an advertisement, this is a situation we are discussing and i am explaining the conclusion of this topic for me and seeing you guys are all regular riggers on thsi forum i doubt you would mind a offer as you know I am not looking for a fast buck or to make money here.

Thanks for all the replies, I would much rather a PD reserve that says 215lbs rather than a reserve hat says 78kgs, cause 78 kgs is my ideal weight i would love to get down to, and that is not including wearing a rig ;)


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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What do the manufacturers say if you call them?

Do they really intend that nobody loads even their modern design reserves heavily, something which goes on all the time??

Most people ignore the whole issue but Bigway gets caught up in the middle of it when he tries to be conscientious about following rules.



A quick review of manufacturers for comparison shows that PD, Aerodyne, and Precision are a few companies that do allow operations up to the certified limit. Meanwhile, Icarus and the Paratec Speed are useless for modern skydiving with highly loaded reserves, if their instructions are followed.



-- PD
They extensively warn about high loadings in the manual, but they allow one to jump at more than the "max suspended weight".
(PD 126 = 151 lbs "max suspended", TSO 254 lbs)
(The warning label of the canopy, however, shows the lower number, not giving the explanation that exceeding it is allowed.)

-- Icarus
"It is NOT allowed" to fly at over 1.325 lb/ft sq wing loading.
(Icarus 129 = 171 lbs limit, despite the 255 lbs certification)

-- Aerodyne Smart
No restrictions up to the certification limit, as there's only a "recommended weight" shown.
(Smart 120 = 165 lbs "recommended", 220 lbs "maximum weight" which will be the certification limit)

-- Paratec Speed
States to "never exceed" the listed lower weights.
(Speed 120 = 158 lbs, vs. 254 lbs certification limit)

-- Precision Raven
The label on a reserve lists the certification limit plus a lower "maximum exit weight" that I've seen to equal the 1.02 lb/ft sq maximum in their old manuals. Yet the label also states that that limit is only to "lower the risk of death [...] canopy damange [etc], never exceed the following limitations:"
Technically that doesn't prohibit higher weight operation -- only saying that IF one wants to lower the chance of bad things happening, not to exceed it.

-- Precision R-Max
Did they ever actually create a manual? I haven't checked lately but there was never one online.
Trim spec documents from them show a "maximum operating weight limit" that must be the certification limit, so they don't seem to restrict the weight to a lower value.
(R-Max 118 = 220 lbs)

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To be honest, I am waiting for my homie Attila to get back from his holiday and get back to NZAerosports so that I can talk to him about what his personal opinion is, his and Jyros. I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe i should not come and post what he says to me but I would like to know their stance on it, personally and professionally.
Bear in mind, hey dont make the Icarus reserve and did not design it, they hardly ever sell it either, but I think they can ask Icarus for me.

Also, I am pretty certain that with this being dropzone.com it should not be long until a Icarus rep is here to say their formal opinion on it, which I am looking forward to.

At the moment it seems a guy like myself who is only out of shape, not fat, just out of shape, can not jump any of their reserves below something like a 169 if i remember correctly from their chart.

What this says to me, as much as I LOVE Icarus canopies with all my heart, it says that their reserve is more a 'just for the sake of having a reserve in their line' than having a reserve that is practical and stands up to modern container sizing.

However, their canopiesdo have a low pack volume but im not sure how much, so maybe if it packs like a PDR143 then I could put it in a container that will take at smallest a safire 129 on a loose basis.

Just does not seem practical and really makes me ask, why even bother making the smaller sizes as a Icarus 129 reserve can not be jumped by anyone who weighs more than 65kgs naked. A 119 can not be jumped by even a midget. So why make them?

This is by no means a rant on Icarus, I love Icarus, I have always jumped Icarus. Icarus gave me courage under canopy and kept me in the sport back when i needed it most. I hope they see it as a mature question, topic, rather than, 'how do we shut this guy the fuck up? lol.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Just does not seem practical and really makes me ask, why even bother making the smaller sizes as a Icarus 129 reserve can not be jumped by anyone who weighs more than 65kgs naked. A 119 can not be jumped by even a midget. So why make them?

Quote



I don't know if I'm a midget,but I can jump Icarus reserve 119. My exit weight is 70 kg;)

BTW. I don't think that any manufacturer should make reserves smaller than 120sq.ft. (projected)
No small reserves,no fat stupid skyGods jumping them. How simple is thatB|

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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There are three standards here: one written by a government engineer, the second written by a marketing manager and the third written by the dealer.

The first standard "maximum suspended weight" is written by a government engineer (okay Jerry, he may be "advised" by a PIA/SAE Committee) that is intended to ensure that the canopy survives opening shock.

The second standard is about surviving landing - with both ankles intact. Sometimes the landing standards is written by an engineer, but more likely is written by a marketing manager. this calls into play a whole bunch of variables, mostly related to jumper skill. For example, PD allows "expert" parachutists to load most of their reserves up to 254 pounds, but we all know that this weight is not healthy for the average sport jumper.
Landing weights are often influenced by lawyers, who may try to protect the manufacturer by publishing unrealistic weights, then pleading innocence in court when a customer exceeds "recommended weights."

My respect for lawyers is coloured by my time spent in divorce court! GRRRRRRRR!

Finally, there is the weight standard written by you, the dealer. This puts the onus for honesty on the more professional of the two parties involved in the transaction: the dealer. Try writing this standard with repeat business in mind. Face it, you will never make enough money from any single sale to retire, so you would be wiser to think a year or two into the future about selling your customer a second or third rig. You will only be able to sell him a second rig if his ankles are intact.

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:)
Please read page 12 in the manual at 10.3

The MAXIMUM EXIT WEIGHT for a reserve canopy size is a legal limit. This parachute was tested under USA FAA TSO C23(d) and EASA ETSO C23d to maximum exit weights of 255 lbs. (116 kg)
It is forbidden to use any ICARUS reserve parachute with an Exit Weight exceeding the "MAXIMUM EXIT WEIGHT" for which each canopy is certified.


Very simple & very clear - the 129 sq.ft ICARUS reserve does NOT fits your customer weight.

Riggers, Instructors, Dealers are the persons to educate the skydivers to stay "IN / UNDER" the limits.
DZO's & DZ Staff are the team to keep the "Over Limit" useres on the ground.

Making money is fine - making SAFER sales money is an HONOR !!!

Be Safe & Smart !!!

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So you weigh in at 70kgs with gear on?

Yes he does. I won't be calling him a midget in public, but I could throw him. :P

(Hi Deyan! Happy New year!)



Hahaha;) Happy New Year Johan
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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