FJC - Introducing Landing Priorities

[jacketsdb23 45]

From another thread:

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At other drop zones, I just try to land into the wind, continuously scan the sky and hope for the best.

This will get you killed, and possibly others. In no part of skydiving should your plan be "hope for the best". Landing into the wind is not a priority.

AMEN. This point needs to be drilled into jumpers heads.

Is it time that we start introducing the importance of fitting into traffic patterns and how to fly a pattern as apposed to the importance of landing into the wind during the FJC? I know there are a lot of logistical issues with this.

Some schools may be doing this and if you do I'd like to know how you implement this and how its received. I think its important to understand the theory of landing into the wind but there is so much windsock chasing on the DZ that I can't help but think people rely WAY to much on landing into the wind.

Is there a way to introduce, for the lack of better term, a landing priority list (credit to DougH for bringing this up in another thread)? I see this helping with a few things:

1. Canopy collisions from windsock chasing.
2. Low turns.

We should be confident enough to land downwind and crosswind. I think we scare new students into landing crosswind. Lets start by landing crosswind. It may lead to a few more bumps and bruises and maybe a broken ankle here and there but people may get the idea that its ok to do.

What is scary...is the number of 100-500 jump skydivers who MUST land into the wind and will do so at any cost. How can we start to change this culture?

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Is it time that we start introducing the importance of fitting into traffic patterns and how to fly a pattern as apposed to the importance of landing into the wind during the FJC?

Maybe not the first jump course, but certainly by the time the student is off radio and planning their own patterns. At that point, I think he/she should understand how to work themselves into the overall traffic pattern.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,475]

>Is it time that we start introducing the importance of fitting into
>traffic patterns and how to fly a pattern as apposed to the importance of
>landing into the wind during the FJC?

I do cover patterns in the FJC, and make it clear that radios can fail, and if they do, the student is expected to fly a downwind/base/final pattern.

However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect students to understand how to fit into a pattern full of other canopies during the FJC. Keep in mind these are people who have never even pulled a toggle before. Asking them to stay above the faster canopies and below the slower canopies might be overloading them.

However #2, it would be a great thing to cover in a graduate course, once they have 20-30 jumps and can fly a good pattern into the student area.

[jacketsdb23 45]

very fair point.

Maybe the more experienced jumpers need to take some responsibility in educating the newly licensed A jumpers. Its seems though that something more formal may be in order so that when jumpers move from DZ to DZ - especially at low jump numbers they have a solid core of understanding canopy patterns and fitting into traffic beyond what was taught in the FJC. Examples need to be set at each DZ and have 0 tolerance for gross landing pattern infractions.

Sadly landing patterns just don't seem to be understood or people don't care and I can't figure out why. Even if 90% of jumpers get it, it only takes one jumper to cause an accident.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[grannyinthesky 0]

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However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect students to understand how to fit into a pattern full of other canopies during the FJC.

I was the only student in winter in Idaho at our dz (one C-182). By the time I was open and looking around, I generally didn't get more than a glimpse of my instructor landing, if that. It really wasn't until I went to a larger dz at about 30 jumps that I actually had a chance to be in the air with other canopies. That first jump there (Skydive Utah, thanks for the great time) was quite an eye-opener and there were probably only about 13 or so canopies in the air with me. I had been taught to fly a pattern, etc, and found that it was easier to follow a pattern when there were others to see flying in a pattern. The phrase I had heard but not had any use for until that time sure popped into my head in a hurry ----"head on a swivel". What had been an intellectual exercise sure took on meaning in a hurry. I'm very glad the information had been presented to me, even though I didn't have a chance to apply it until then.

When it comes to landing crosswind or downwind, I learned to do that by chasing a windsock that seemed to change directions everytime I looked. But I was told enough times not to turn low, that by the time I realized I wasn't facing into the wind, I knew I had to deal with what I had chosen to do. Thanks to my choices, I've gotten pretty good at PLF's and know that I can land crosswind or downwind if I have to.

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[DougH 270]

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Maybe the more experienced jumpers need to take some responsibility in educating the newly licensed A jumpers.

This is easily done. I watch people land when I am manifesting, and when I am on the ground between loads. If I see any one busting the pattern I make sure they get spoken to or I speak to them. Make sure that every infraction is addressed and make sure the multiple offenders have punishments.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[kelpdiver 2]

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However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect students to understand how to fit into a pattern full of other canopies during the FJC. Keep in mind these are people who have never even pulled a toggle before. Asking them to stay above the faster canopies and below the slower canopies might be overloading them.

Also nearly pointless when they're opening at 5500, and typically last out the door before tandems which still open below them and typically land sooner.

You can train them on the pattern, but the coach jumps are likely the first opportunity to actually be in traffic, and even then perhaps not if the students have a different LZ. (At skydance until a couple years ago, the Barn was sufficiently far away that students were first out on south run, and last out on north run, and close to a mile away from the main LZ.

[DougH 270]

So when do we teach it and how do we make it stick. I fully agree it isn't FJC material but at what point in the progression does it become relevant and when is a student receptive to it?

I think this is really important. Maybe my opinion is misguided but I think jumpers who are taught how to behave in the pattern early are also going to be safer when they grow in experince and move on to smaller canopies and or swooping.

The judgement that kept me from doing bone head moves like S turns on final at 50 jumps, is the same judgement call that I use to stick to 90's in a congested pattern.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[diablopilot 2]

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I do cover patterns in the FJC, and make it clear that radios can fail, and if they do, the student is expected to fly a downwind/base/final pattern.

Agreed

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However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect students to understand how to fit into a pattern full of other canopies during the FJC.

Strongly disagree. If a student is not taught the key reason for using standard patterns from day one, and additionally to keep an eye out for traffic, you are starting them down the wrong path.

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Keep in mind these are people who have never even pulled a toggle before. Asking them to stay above the faster canopies and below the slower canopies might be overloading them.

No one is asking them to do that yet, only to be aware of the importance of flying among traffic and start practicing see and avoid techniques.

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However #2, it would be a great thing to cover in a graduate course, once they have 20-30 jumps and can fly a good pattern into the student area.

And it's at this point that too many skydivers are getting lost in the fold...... education happens on every jump, there is no reason to wait.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Landing Priorities as specified in our FJC:
1. Avoid other canopies.
2. Avoid obstacles.
3. Land going in a straight line.
4. Land into wind





5. Land in the designated area.
These were lifted wholesale from the British Army Parachute Association's FJC.

[labrys 0]

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Landing Priorities as specified in our FJC:
1. Avoid other canopies.
2. Avoid obstacles.
3. Land going in a straight line.
4. Land into wind

You teach students that landing in straight line is less of a priority than avoiding obstacles? Could you explain the reasoning behing that a little more?

I teach that landing straight and level is more important than avoiding obstacles and that makes sense to me. That's also what I was trained to teach.

1. Land flying straight and level
2. Land in an open area
3. Get the toggles down to at least your hips

Owned by Remi #?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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You teach students that landing in straight line is less of a priority than avoiding obstacles? Could you explain the reasoning behing that a little more?

I teach that landing straight and level is more important than avoiding obstacles and that makes sense to me.

Well. I believe that flying into buildings and powerlines for example, have a much higher chance of killing a student than landing in a turn. That said i do spend a fair bit of energy teaching how to conduct an emergency, low level turn. There are no purely correct answers here and we tend to hate gray areas in the first jump course, but I feel that this is the best short and long term advice I can give.

[jurgencamps 0]

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Landing Priorities as specified in our FJC:
1. Avoid other canopies.
2. Avoid obstacles.
3. Land going in a straight line.
4. Land into wind
5. Land in the designated area.
These were lifted wholesale from the British Army Parachute Association's FJC.

1. Canopy on level above you (I mean no diving or banking)
2. No obstacles
3. Flare even
4. Land against the wind

If you have a collision, euhm, you are not landing anymore. So:
0: avoid other canopies

[popsjumper 2]

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Is it time that we start introducing the importance of fitting into traffic patterns and how to fly a pattern as apposed to the importance of landing into the wind during the FJC? I know there are a lot of logistical issues with this.

Some schools may be doing this and if you do I'd like to know how you implement this and how its received.

I teach:
-General (L/R) landing patterns
-Entering the pattern
-Joining the pattern on any leg
-Landing straight and level

I make note of the benefit of landing into the wind but emphasize that it is not a requirement. The requirement is the designated landing pattern.

I do teach about low turn avoidance and limit my students to no turns more than 90 degree half-turns under 1000 ft.

Obstacle landings is an entirely different segment of the course. For example, "The best way to handle any obstacle landing is to avoid it. Here's how...". "If you have no other choice, this is what you do.....".

The students are having no problems understanding the pattern concepts and practical applications.

So far, everything has worked out really well with no pattern conflicts except one where the student made it back from a long spot with a straight-in approach against the final (she "forgot" the FJC teaching about doing that in the alternate landing area instead of the main)....fortunately, she was the last one down.

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What is scary...is the number of 100-500 jump skydivers who MUST land into the wind and will do so at any cost. How can we start to change this culture?

-Ground their butts every time they do it in conflict with the designated landing pattern.
-Restrict them to DZs that chase the wind.
-Let me know which DZs chase the wind so I can avoid them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AndyMan 7]

I teach landing priorities in the fjc.

These are:

1: open area
2: wings level
3: flare to at least #2 position.

I note the absence of "into the wind". I stress that into the wind is a "nice to have", but is not on the list.

I teach a pattern with standard altitude reference points of 1000, 500, and 300. I draw such a pattern on an aerial photo using a whiteboard marker.

Fitting into the pattern is a tough thing to teach in the early in the student progression, since there rarely are other canopies in the air when AFF students are landing. All the fun jumpers are long on the ground, and tandems have usually landed too. There really isn't a "pattern" to fit into, if all the other canopies are on the ground. The tandems make it even more confusing since many TM's seem to dislike flying a normal pattern, and often make their turns (comparatively) very low.

On every jump in the pre-jump briefing, I talk through the intended pattern, and remind the student of the importance of landing the same direction as other jumpers they may be near.

Ultimately, I agree. Any instructor that is not teaching landing priorities and standard patterns is not doing their job. I suspect that most instructors ARE doing this - but the message simply isn't being preserved once the student gets their 'a' license.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[labrys 0]

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I teach landing priorities in the fjc.

These are:

1: open area
2: wings level
3: flare to at least #2 position.

That's at least 2 people who teach that landing in an open area takes priority over landing flying straight and level. I don't think that the USPA is right about everything, but I do agree with their recommendation that landing in level flight is more important than avoiding obstacles.

Why do you teach the opposite?

Owned by Remi #?

[AndyMan 7]

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Why do you teach the opposite?

Because I hadn't had my coffee when I typed the post.

You are correct, and the notes I teach from say the same thing. Thanks for the correction.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[livendive 8]

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1. Land flying straight and level
2. Land in an open area (I say "avoid obstacles"...same same)
3. Get the toggles down to at least your hips
4. Keep your legs beneath you and be prepared to PLF.
5. Land into the wind.

I add to your's a little bit, but basically teach the same thing.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,475]

>Strongly disagree. If a student is not taught the key reason for using
>standard patterns from day one, and additionally to keep an eye out for
>traffic, you are starting them down the wrong path.

I explain the pattern and why we fly it (and to turn right to avoid collisions etc) - but not how to fit into a busy pattern with a variety of other canopies. In fact, I specifically mention that their student canopies are readily recognizable so that experienced jumpers know to give them right of way, but other students may not, and thus they have to keep their eyes open.

Teaching how to fly a pattern in traffic is an important still, but FJC students are simply not prepared (yet) for that information. It would be like teaching them to side slide.

[jsaxton 0]

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Landing Priorities as specified in our FJC:
1. Avoid other canopies.
2. Avoid obstacles.
3. Land going in a straight line.
4. Land into wind

You teach students that landing in straight line is less of a priority than avoiding obstacles? Could you explain the reasoning behing that a little more?

I teach that landing straight and level is more important than avoiding obstacles and that makes sense to me. That's also what I was trained to teach.

1. Land flying straight and level
2. Land in an open area
3. Get the toggles down to at least your hips

I believe that you are misinterpreting the priorities:
Priority1: Avoid other canopys
Priority2: Avoid obstacles
Priority3: Land in a straight line (wing level)
Priority4: Land into the wind
Priority5: Land in the designated area

[DougH 270]

If the student lands in a hard bank while trying to accomplish Priority #2 then it doesn't matter that they avoided the obstacle.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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If the student lands in a hard bank while trying to accomplish Priority #2 then it doesn't matter that they avoided the obstacle.

I have heard of students dying from landing in a spiral, but I cannot remember anyone dying from a low turn on a student canopy. On the other hand a first jump student died earlier this month from hitting an obstacle (power lines). I am not saying it cannot happen, just looking at what is the larger hazard.

[Schoenauer 0]

#1 landing priority “Land in an open field free of obstacles”, plane A is the drop zone plane B the next best place, an open field free of obstacles, and the rule regarding obstacles is? “Avoid them”

* After CCC, find the Drop zone, and locate the upwind boundary then fly the canopy to the upwind boundary while maintaining Altitude awareness.

* Landing pattern down wind 1000’, base then final, altitudes are specific to drop zone and winds.

* Final approach keep flying the canopy making gentle turns to maintain your flight course, with no more than 30 degree course change toggle input, until your feet touch the ground and you have collapsed your canopy.

* Fair 10 to 12’ above the ground in a steady rate until you hands are full arm extension to the crouch while prepared for a PLF.

Crosswind landings, Interesting topic and I am not sure why you bring it up. I don’t teach crosswind landings it in the FJC nor will I porously land a student in a crosswind when it could be avoided. If the student was injured on a crosswind landings I instructed them to do when it could be avoided I feel it exposes me to liability issues. I would instruct any level student on crosswind landings if the conditions existed that day.

Memento Mori

[billvon 2,475]

>I don’t teach crosswind landings it in the FJC . . .

I cover into the wind, crosswind and downwind landings in the FJC so:

1) they know why landing into the wind is a good idea
2) they know they shouldn't chase the windsock no matter what
3) they have a shot at not getting hurt if they have to land crosswind

Besides, it's easy. It's just like landing into the wind, except you're moving faster over the ground.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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What is scary...is the number of 100-500 jump skydivers who MUST land into the wind and will do so at any cost. How can we start to change this culture?

To change the culture requires something akin to what has been done in Eloy. In the main landing area, you either land strait east or west, depending on the winds. Going catty-corner across the lading area is absolutely unacceptable, and you WILL be told so. I've done it exactly twice, and was immediatly told both times (in a polite manner) never to do that. If crosswind doesn't work for you and the wind is facing north or south, you go land in the alternate area, where the rules are identical, just facing N-S instead of E-W.

It requires a decision from a strong DZ management who isn't afraid to confront any jumper who violates it, and is willing to enforce it if needed (this is rare, but does happen). It also requires every single experienced local buying into the concept and abiding by it, instead of just telling other people the rules and then doing whatever they damn well feel like, as tends to happen at many DZs.

Coming from more typical DZ's myself, I've been amazed at the level of discipline shown by the locals in the pattern. On slow days with few visitors, the pattern is almost textbook. It's only during boogies that things get scary.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."