Vigil???

[AllisonH 0]

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One does not have to send the cypres II away for maintenance at exactly four years. The maintenance period is four years plus/minus six months, so one can send it in for service when it is convenient.

Second comment. Your stats are wrong. I copied and pasted this out of the manual - in reference to your +- 6 month comment, it's really 3 months. Granted you always can send it in late, but you can't jump it late. You can't send it in early, they won't work on it:

Maintenance ................................. 4 and 8 years from date of manufacture ± 3 months
Total lifetime .......................... 12 years from date of manufacture + 3 months maximum

Did you check the Cypres I or II manual? For the I's you're correct, it's +/- 3 months. According to the Cypres II manual it's 4 and 8 years +/- 6 months for maintenance and a total lifetime of 12.5 years.

[bofh 0]

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In Sweden the Vigil would still need service as often as the cypres

Why would a vigil need a service as often as the Cypres in Sweden?

The Swedish safety commitee made the decision that the Vigil must be serviced every fourth year. It is regulated in two places. One place says four years, the other says four years +- three months. So the Cypres II has a slight advantage there...

[bofh 0]

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And, even with winter here, there was no "good time". Winter boogies + AFF instruction + having fun year around, taking something out of service sucks...

I agree. I don't understand why Airtec does not start some kind of swap program instead of their current rent-while-you-wait program. Get a freshly serviced unit and send in your old.

[tdog 0]

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One does not have to send the cypres II away for maintenance at exactly four years. The maintenance period is four years plus/minus six months, so one can send it in for service when it is convenient.

Second comment. Your stats are wrong. I copied and pasted this out of the manual - in reference to your +- 6 month comment, it's really 3 months. Granted you always can send it in late, but you can't jump it late. You can't send it in early, they won't work on it:

Maintenance ................................. 4 and 8 years from date of manufacture ± 3 months
Total lifetime .......................... 12 years from date of manufacture + 3 months maximum

Did you check the Cypres I or II manual? For the I's you're correct, it's +/- 3 months. According to the Cypres II manual it's 4 and 8 years +/- 6 months for maintenance and a total lifetime of 12.5 years.

Got me... I was thinking the OP was talking about the Cypres 1, since it was not specified...

Yes, all the specs are different, as someone pointed out in PMs.... Life, windows, maintenance, etc....

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Peter.
VIGIL owner manual says: << Vigil will work correctly even when used in a pressurized cabin as long as the pressure differs at least + or - 5 hPa compared to the atmospheric pressure at the take off >>. 5 hecto Pascal is a pressure equivalent of about 150 ft in change of altitude >>.

Cypres owner manual says: << When using a pressurized aircraft, make sure that the cabin remains open when the turbines are started up. Leave a window, a door, or the ramp open a bit until after lift off. This will ensure that the cabin pressure cannot build up above the air pressure on the ground>> .

Peter, you are right that only the Vigil cautions the owner about travelling with the unit into a closed vehicle bwecause of the possible change of pressure (ie. Mountain). I think Cypres could add that in its manual as well.

This for other forum members:

Now for the watch: I have my watch for 20 years now. My father and my mother and many members of the family had an Omega watch all their life. I have now my father and mother watches and they are still working. My mother's Omega watch was bought in 1937 and is still working. What other proof of quality some people still want???? Citing Nasa is not a too bad reference either. Have a look on the Internet and you will understand why Nasa had prefered Omega to Rolex for instance.

Now a very simple test. Have a Cypres in one hand and a Vigil in the other hand, feel them, play with them, look at their features and see how they are built. The difference is obvious. Keep your old slippers but get the best technology, get a Vigil.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[airtwardo 6]

Now for the watch: I have my watch for 20 years now. My father and my mother and many members of the family had an Omega watch all their life. I have now my father and mother watches and they are still working. My mother's Omega watch was bought in 1937 and is still working. What other proof of quality some people still want???? Citing Nasa is not a too bad reference either. Have a look on the Internet and you will understand why Nasa had prefered Omega to Rolex for instance.


http://www.bestwomenswatchdeals.com/womens-watches/omega-mens-speedmaster-professional-mechanical-chronograph-watch-3570.50.00.html

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BrianM 1]

Andre, I agree with you about the Vigil features and the sturdiness of it's case and cables. A couple things, however, seem not quite right to me:

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* If one reads an AAD owner's manual, manufacturers are warning that you don't travel in a mountain area with an AAD switched on. Because it's a pressure sensitive device.

I would have to be driving at 654 mph (1053 km/h) down a 12% grade to reach the 78 mph descent rate required for the Vigil to fire. At 100 mph (still very fast!) on that same grade, the descent rate would be just under 12 mph. Obviously no one is descending fast enough while driving to get even close to the firing parameters of the Vigil. Why are Vigils prone to firing when driving down hills?

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* Vigil is armed soon after the take off (150 ft)

When a trunk or car door is slammed, or when an aircraft is pressurized on the ground, the Vigil is still in standby mode - in other words, it knows perfectly well that it is sitting safely on the ground - yet it can still fire. Why would an AAD fire when it knows it is sitting on the ground?

It is not the features or construction quality of the Vigil that I doubt, it is the firing logic.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[piisfish 136]

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It is not the features or construction quality of the Vigil that I doubt, it is the firing logic.

part of the logic is :
if you go lower than your intended landing area, it not normal, so I fire. (driving lower than landing area, slamming a door (increase of pressure) etc etc)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[timmyfitz 0]

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Now a very simple test. Have a Cypres in one hand and a Vigil in the other hand, feel them, play with them, look at their features and see how they are built. The difference is obvious.

Yep, I'll stick with the best. The Cypres.

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Brian. When you slam a car trunk with a switched on Vigil in it, you can create an extra pressure "telling" the Vigil that you are descending. If the rate of change of pressure is such that it "tells" the Vigil you are going down fast, the unit "understands" that both you changed your altitude by 150 ft (- or +) and your speed is over 78 mph then you risk a firing.
For the Cypres the warning for the pilot not to fly under the take off altitude is to avoid a recalibration at a different altitude that the landing zone one. This is my iunderstanding.
The firing logic of the Vigil is also more advanced than its competitors since the Vigil calculate the time remaining before firing altitude (unlike other AAD). The Vigil evaluates several time per second the altitude, then the speed using the rate of change of pressure then it checks the time before firing. If the speed is at or over 78 mph and the time is zero, then the firing occures within 2/1000th of a second, way faster than the competitors since the special capacitance (pulse plus) is alredy full loaded (unlike competitors).
More details about the firing logic of the Vigil ??? It is not in the manual about the travelling in the mountains and your calculations are OK but I heard something about that.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

I agree that it is very difficult to get rid of a bad habit.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[timmyfitz 0]

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I agree that it is very difficult to get rid of a bad habit.

You funny. I can't imagine that the best AAD is a bad habit.

Are you a salesman for Vigil?

[BrianM 1]

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When you slam a car trunk with a switched on Vigil in it, you can create an extra pressure "telling" the Vigil that you are descending. If the rate of change of pressure is such that it "tells" the Vigil you are going down fast, the unit "understands" that both you changed your altitude by 150 ft (- or +) and your speed is over 78 mph then you risk a firing.

The data from the sensor is not examined to ensure that it makes sense? How can I possibly be sitting on the ground, and a fraction of a second later be descending at 78 mph or greater? Such a sudden spike in pressure cannot possibly represent a takeoff, nor can it represent an acceleration due to gravity (it is too high an acceleration). It obviously either represents some type of pressurization event, or is erroneous data. Either way it should be easily filtered out.

I can understand this behaviour from an FXC 12000, but I expect more from a modern digital AAD.

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The firing logic of the Vigil is also more advanced than its competitors since the Vigil calculate the time remaining before firing altitude (unlike other AAD). The Vigil evaluates several time per second the altitude, then the speed using the rate of change of pressure then it checks the time before firing. If the speed is at or over 78 mph and the time is zero, then the firing occures

This has never made sense to me. How does measuring time to firing help? Time remaining will equal 0 at exactly the same time as current altitude equals firing altitude. It seems to me that it is checking exactly the same thing, it is just doing extra calculations to do it.

Expressed mathematically:

time_remaining = (current_alt - firing_alt) * sample_interval / (previous_alt - current_alt)

which will equal 0 when (and only when):

current_alt = firing_alt

so why not just do that?

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It is not in the manual about the travelling in the mountains and your calculations are OK but I heard something about that.

What did you hear?

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[piisfish 136]

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How can I possibly be sitting on the ground, and a fraction of a second later be descending at 78 mph or greater?

you might be falling into a black hole or a timespace continuum loophole, and your Vigil2 will save you.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[blueskiesbill 0]

ok so i was unaware of the forum war i would start --- but its good because i am finding out a lot...

question tho

so if i have a vigil in my rig and i head down to zhills for my winter break via airplane do i have to worry about it firing in the cabin? cause that would be an issue because i do not check my rig (way to much money spent on that thing to trust the guys that handle the luggage!)

the condemned convict climbs the highest peaks without fear

[Baksteen 84]

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So, are the Vigil II's popping when people drive down hills

yes

Makes we wonder if those people even realize that you can turn the dang thing off when not in use.

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"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[kelpdiver 2]

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Now, the Vigil III is coming and the possibility of firing problems near the ground will be solved plus we will see some surprising new features.

Is it comforting or disturbing to you that Vigil is already on its 3rd development cycle in roughly 5 years? At that pace, they'll have the Vgil V at the same point the Cypres 2 came.

Worse is that these resemble a mix of bug fixes and new features, like a new version of Windows.

[tdog 0]

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so if i have a vigil in my rig and i head down to zhills for my winter break via airplane do i have to worry about it firing in the cabin?

You mean in a commercial airliner. I read "head down" and was thinking you were freeflying at Zhills.

If the vigil is off, nothing will fire. Turn it off before getting on an aircraft that you don't plan on jumping out of.

[jurgencamps 0]

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Now, the Vigil III is coming and the possibility of firing problems near the ground will be solved plus we will see some surprising new features.

Is it comforting or disturbing to you that Vigil is already on its 3rd development cycle in roughly 5 years? At that pace, they'll have the Vgil V at the same point the Cypres 2 came.

Worse is that these resemble a mix of bug fixes and new features, like a new version of Windows.

Or that Airtech waited till there was another AAD before they started selling the cypres 2!
You never know how many versions of cypres 1 existed because they modifie (or repair) your cypres during the 4year inspection, without you knowing it (for example the static electricity protectionscreen, the bad condensators, ...).

[kelpdiver 2]

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Or that Airtech waited till there was another AAD before they started selling the cypres 2!
You never know how many versions of cypres 1 existed because they modifie (or repair) your cypres during the 4year inspection, without you knowing it (for example the static electricity protectionscreen, the bad condensators, ...).

Indeed, though I think it's for the better that they made those changes without introducing more features that were potential failure points. KISS at its best. Vigil, despite having the benefit of seeing their history, had the same problems with static, and is constantly altering the product in a rapid development cycle for a new product. I think part of the need is that in order to sell at a similar price point, they need to have other hooks.

[tdog 0]

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I think part of the need is that in order to sell at a similar price point, they need to have other hooks.

I don't think any AAD company really looks to us civilians as a profit center. We are just another software version in the bigger picture.

Military is where it is at.

I went to a seminar at PIA about Vigil Military use.

How about this cool setting... A Vigil that will fire in X seconds after reaching Y miles per hour, regardless. A ticking time bomb. They have it.

You need to drop some cargo (ransom money) to a ship holding hostages, now you have the tool...

Or a Vigil you can turn on in a pressureized aircraft just prior to jumping, and you have to set the landing field elevation manually in atmospheric pressure... I.E. You fly in for 20 hours to enemy territory, don't know where you are going to jump until you get there, and don't know the weather either, so you have to do all the settings manually using data from secret agents on the ground measuring pressure, or using a standard pressure for the field elevation if you don't have current weather data. Yes, per the slogan for the iPhone ads on TV, "there is an app for that"....



Their software platform is probably (just a good guess) highly configurable for just about any set of military needs... Their hardware is multi-use... But of course, if they told you everything they can do, they would have to kill you James Bond style.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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ok so i was unaware of the forum war i would start --- but its good because i am finding out a lot...

Most people have good reasons for choosing their gear, so it always seems to get down to an argument. Which isn't always a bad thing. I started to type a response to you the other day, but then got distracted, so I'll chime in now. While I think both Vigil and Cypres produce good products, I chose to fly an Argus when I added an AAD to my rig last year. Here's why:

1 - I wanted a multi-mode AAD. I plan to start swooping at some point over the next 12 years, and would like to know my AAD is ready for that. That ruled out the Cypres.

2 - When I was making my decision, the stuff mentioned in the posts above about the Vigil firings gave me pause. I had made about 100 jumps without an AAD before deciding to buy one. I look at it as my responsibility to save my ass each jump, and (God-willing) hope to never have to use my AAD.

That being said, I'm much more worried about an AAD that fires when I don't want it to than an AAD that doesn't fire when I do want it to. So going with the AAD that had just been reported as firing under odd circumstances didn't appeal to me.

To be fair, you can make a good logical argument that 'when something funky happens, the AAD should default to "better safe than sorry"'. But seeing what happened to Adrian Nicholas and a few others convinced me that an AAD can be a killer as well as a life-saver.

So I wanted an AAD that has very specific firing parameters. After watching the interview from PIA with the Vigil manufacturers (defending the firings as 'by design'), that convinced me I needed to shy away from the Vigil.

---

The Argus offered the multi-mode capabilities, as well as the assurance that it wasn't going to be 'trigger-happy' under 'gray area' parameters. I also like its rigid, hard casing, and the fact that the batteries are field-replaceable. Yes, it requires a 4-year check...but I can live with that.

So far, I've never had to use the thing. If I ever DO have to use it, I'll hopefully be still able to give a more in-depth review.

Signatures are the new black.

[billvon 2,464]

> you can create an extra pressure "telling" the Vigil that you are
>descending.

Agreed. An AAD with more advanced logic knows that there is no possible way that one moment you were at ground level, and the next moment you were doing 80mph straight down. That's physically impossible, and thus can be rejected as a spurious reading.

An AAD with simpler logic that does not do such checking sees only the 90mph transient reading, and thus misfires in the trunk.

>The firing logic of the Vigil is also more advanced than its competitors
>since the Vigil calculate the time remaining before firing altitude (unlike
>other AAD). The Vigil evaluates several time per second the altitude, then
>the speed using the rate of change of pressure then it checks the time
>before firing. If the speed is at or over 78 mph and the time is zero, then
>the firing occures within 2/1000th of a second . . .

You're saying two different things here.

In the first part of the paragraph you are saying that the vigil gets "ready to fire" so it can prepare to fire the cutter. In the second half of the paragraph you say that the vigil does not need to get "ready to fire" since it can fire the cutter within 2 milliseconds.

Which is it?

[PhreeZone 15]

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1 - I wanted a multi-mode AAD. I plan to start swooping at some point over the next 12 years, and would like to know my AAD is ready for that. That ruled out the Cypres.

You can send the CYPRES back to Airtec/SSK and they will change it to a swoop mode one for you if that is what you need.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skydiverek 60]

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1 - I wanted a multi-mode AAD. I plan to start swooping at some point over the next 12 years, and would like to know my AAD is ready for that. That ruled out the Cypres.

You can send the CYPRES back to Airtec/SSK and they will change it to a swoop mode one for you if that is what you need.

For free!