councilman24 36 #26 April 27, 2009 I have that Raven/Racer video somewhere. Hmm, at least I did. I haven't seen it for a long time. Much of the debate among manufacturers whether propack was authorized was over training riggers to do it. And some felt that a video was best. Of course ParaFlite thought you needed their ram air rigger rating in the early 80's to pack there reserve (nothing to do with propack) The FAA inspector that gave my oral and practical said he never heard of it and a manufacturer could require any additional 'rating'. Good enough for me although the debate was it was in the instructions so you had to have it. IIRC USPA took it over for a few months.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #27 April 27, 2009 I have always flat packed my 5 cell Swift reserve (from 1983 to 1993). When I got my first PD reserve in 1993, I flat packed it for a many years and changed for Pro Packing after 2000. The advantage of the flat pack is that it's easier to control tension on the lines and to keep them in the middle of the pack where they are supposed to be since you apply tension from the top of the canopy. The advantage of the pro pack when well done is that it is a symetrical packing and therefore will theoretically give you an on heading opening. Both methods work well. I made cut away and reserve activation with both methods and I really cannot see any difference.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #28 April 27, 2009 Hi Andre', QuoteI made cut away and reserve activation with both methods and I really cannot see any difference. Jaohn LeBlanc of PD will also tell you that the pack methods make no difference on the deployment times. At least, that is what he told me last year, JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #29 April 28, 2009 Hello Jerry, BTW I received your paper seal samples. Thanks. I sent you an email but a non delivery notice came back. Maybe your mail box was full. Anyway I am glad to hear that John LeBlanc and I have the same idea about the 2 methods for packing a reserve ie. no difference.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #30 April 28, 2009 QuoteI have always flat packed my 5 cell Swift reserve (from 1983 to 1993). When I got my first PD reserve in 1993, I flat packed it for a many years and changed for Pro Packing after 2000. The advantage of the flat pack is that it's easier to control tension on the lines and to keep them in the middle of the pack where they are supposed to be since you apply tension from the top of the canopy. Just like when redressing a reserve/BASE pro-pack on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #31 April 28, 2009 PRO packing really only makes a difference at the heavy-weight, high-speed edge of the envelope. Symmetrical openings help distribute stress more evenly at high speeds. That is part of the reason we PRO packed all of the Aviator prototypes for testing well beyond the requirements of TSO C23D. I lost count of lead ingots after 340 pounds ... The other reason for PRO packing Aviators is pilot comfort. PRO packing minimizes uncomfortable lumps along the centerline. That is why most squares - in pilot emergency parachutes - are PRO packed. Most pilots consider emergency parachutes to be expensive, lumpy seat cushions with annoying maintenance schedules. The best riggers can do is make them comfortable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #32 April 28, 2009 Hi Andre', A little off-topic but I am having computer problems for 1 1/2 weeks now. I cannot receive emails. It goes in today for repairs. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #33 April 28, 2009 Rob, You really DON'T believe a para flite stack pack is unsymetrical do you? A brief case or flop pack yes, a stack pack no. By the time a flat pack is done its still a nose down S fold. Just all the cells together instead of two separate ones. But I'm not telling you anything you don't know.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #34 April 29, 2009 I mostly agree with you. The difference between between openings when you stack pack versus PRO pack is tiny. However,PRO packing helps distribute bulk more evenly, making pilot's delicate backsides more comfortable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #35 April 29, 2009 No debate on the bulk distribution.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #36 April 29, 2009 QuoteHello Jerry, BTW I received your paper seal samples. Thanks. I sent you an email but a non delivery notice came back. Maybe your mail box was full. Anyway I am glad to hear that John LeBlanc and I have the same idea about the 2 methods for packing a reserve ie. no difference. ---------------------------------------------------------- Does this apply to mains as well ? isn't it all just packing preference anyway ? Thanks allsmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #37 April 29, 2009 When you get close to the edge of the envelope, small variables become important. At the high speed edge of the envelope (eg. drop tests at 205 knots and 400 pounds) symmetrical - PRO packed - openings help ensure that a canopy remains structurally intact. At your end of the scale (heavily-loaded pond swooping canopeis) PRO packing helps with on-heading openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #38 April 29, 2009 The few times I've watched lately, when the reserve was packed on the ground (not an over the shoulder pro-pack), the end result was still what a pro-pack provides, but done very neatly and carefully while it is on the ground. Perhaps my observation was wrong, but it seemed that way to me. I realize that the work to separate to the L&R all the fabric isn't done by all riggers that pack it on the ground, but there are some/many that do, right? Isn't it better (but more work) to carefully do it on the ground than over the shoulder and tossed down?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain_stan 0 #39 April 29, 2009 Disclaimer: Referring to the 7-cell reserve in the broadest terms without getting into exception, variations, or fine details: Quote The few times I've watched lately, when the reserve was packed on the ground (not an over the shoulder pro-pack), the end result was still what a pro-pack provides, but done very neatly and carefully while it is on the ground. The pro-pack can be flaked over the shoulder and then laid down to be further straightened and dressed, or it can be done from start to finish on the floor (hopefully not the ground). The exclusive feature of a pro pack is that when fully flaked, the L and R halves will be a mirror image of each other, and each group of 8 lines (A-D) are divided in half—4 L & 4 R separated slightly from each other on either side of the canopy’s center. The nose will be on the floor with the tail on top. Quote Isn't it better (but more work) to carefully do it on the ground than over the shoulder and tossed down? It’s a matter of personal choice, and can have the same result. If a rigger “tosses” it down, I hope he’ll continue to dress it until it is neat and symmetrical with well-defined folds. Quote I realize that the work to separate to the L&R all the fabric isn't done by all riggers that pack it on the ground, You are referring to a flat pack, which may be required by the manufacturer of the canopy or container. This is becoming less common, especially in sport rigs. A flat pack, AKA side-pack or stack-pack is done entirely on the floor with the canopy laid on one end-cell, and the opposite end cell on top of the “stack” of cells. The lines are gathered in groups of 8 (A-D). The stack is then folded by one of several methods, but the common factor is that the stack of cells is not split apart, nor are the groups of 8 lines divided further, but rather stacked one on top of the other with equal fabric on either side. The result can be very neat, but will not be a bilaterally symmetrical, mirror image from L to R. Some of the canopies L side will end up in the R half of the pack & vise-versa. This method doesn’t lend itself as well to the more complex shape of molar-bags now commonly used. With 29 years in the sport, surely you've seen some old-timers packing their mains in this manner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #40 April 30, 2009 I have jumped mains using side pack a lot and more recently (since 1993) I do pro pack. I changed for pro pack when I got my first zero porosity canopy, a Sabre because PD was recommending a pro pack. But I would say both methods work well. I agree with Riggerob when he says that the pro pack method put less bulk in the middle for reserve and main as well. Now with most rigs having one pin reserve container, it is easier to use the pro pack method. Riggerob seems to have a knowledge about the end of the envelop canopies (canopies at hight loading) while I was speaking about the most common canopies (between 135 and 300 square feet) used with normal loading and speed.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #41 April 30, 2009 I packed a reserve today and had the chance to have the owner with me so I could explain him how the Skyhook was working (cut away or just the reserve). Jerry have you read my thread STAIRCASE EXPERIMENT ? Just curious. Well for your computer, I have a cure; get rid of it and buy the one with a Granny Smith fruit as a symbol if you see what I mean just like me. And if you buy the cell phone/computer with touch control from the same company, this will be the perfect harmony or synchronization Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #42 April 30, 2009 Hi Andre', I'm using the computer at the local library right now. I have 'looked at' your Staircase Experiment and will read it and comment when I get my computer back. I do appreciate anyone who likes to do testing to find out 'things.' As for a Mac vs PC, well that all comes down to whether you prefer blonds or redheads. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
