'D' Bag orientation

[DSE 3]

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(And note that changing your dbag orientation is not one of the things likely to kill you unless you take it to extremes - but it's still a good idea to learn _first_ and try _second._)

This is the context from which I've made my discussion point. In my original post, the comment is made that if you're an experienced skydiver...vs being a new skydiver, the answer is a different answer.

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we cannot afford to make the most common mistakes even once

Here, we differ. I submit the most common mistakes are the mistakes we read about in the "Stupid things I have done" threads, and it's the less common mistakes that find themselves in the Incidents forum.
I suppose it's all about the context of the discussion. In this discussion of Dbags, the OP has over 1000 jumps and is asking about Dbag orientation. IMO, considering the potentials and then trying various concepts is not a dangerous thing, although it may well lead to a cutaway/mistake, and result in a more informed skydiver.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Wingsuiters shouldn't be using a pull out anyway.

Why?

The strong turbulance of the suit does not provide a clear launch of your PC.

Assuming the same bridle length and P/C construction/size how is there any difference in launch?

If its a throw out PC you throw it into the clean airflow next to your body.

Anyway stop fooling around! You have 300+ WS jumps with pull-out and you should know quite well why is not recommended!

[bofh 0]

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The answer seems quite simple for me. The D bag stows have to be away from the lines and risers to decrease the possibility of any interference during the deployment. It seems to me that all container manufacturers ask the user to follow that method isn't it?

The Wings manual says:

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10. Placing the bag in the container: There are two different ways
the bag may be placed in the container.
a. Conventional method: Place the bag in the container
so that the mouth of the bag is facing the bottom. This
method is preferred for wider containers that are “thin.”
b. Optional method: Place the bag in the container so that
the mouth is facing the backpad with the line stows up
against the reserve container. This method is preferred
for narrow rigs where the main container is short and
thick. Use whichever method suits your container size
and packing style.

[zoom1 0]

"i'm not dead,havent had any cutaways" the only thing you left out was "that won't happen to me" . you keep leaning by making mistakes and i'll learn by reading about people like yourself in the incidents thread

[rehmwa 2]

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The D bag stows have to be away from the lines and risers to decrease

I'd sure like to know how to keep the stows away from the lines......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[airtwardo 6]

I find it interesting that I can relate to and agree with both of you on the subject of mistakes and learning.

I have a bit longer frame of reference chronologically and see the favorable parts of both stances regarding the issue...My long-term overview is the 'compromise' between Mr. Unbridled Experimentation and Rule Book Billy.

Back in the Para Commander dayz, someone figured out by trying, shortening the lines made it turn faster and sink better...we tried it with the squares and saw, as far as a good idea, um - 'not so much'.

We use to actually cut the padding off our harness to make it smaller, lighter and fit better...worked great, then some folks got scissor happy with the Green Star Express and left their reserve hanging in the sky unattended.

Ripcord stops came and went, cones were changed to loops.

Springs came out of pilot-chutes and the results were eyed suspiciously for a time, especially when twisted belly-bands=death...many moved it to the leg-strap long before manufacturer offered it.

BOC 'pull-out' Racers were certain black death...how can ya pull something ya can't see, and when I tossed the bag and went to free-packing with a Raeper in mine I was a prominent name on the bingo board.

The sport like everything else has changed considerably over the last 30 years, the gear is better and standardized, the training more focused on progression and avoiding common 'mistakes'...resources of experience are much more readily available now than ever before.

IMO...there is still room for and the need to push the envelope as far as what works best for an individual, but the process needs to be well thought out and the negative consequences logically considered.

We're human so mistakes are inevitable, keeping the number and the severity of consequence to a minimum are a paramount consideration, but like it or not mistakes are how we learn and if as a group we choose not to make ANY...we'd still be making baton passes and calling it a day.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JohnRich 4]

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The D bag stows have to be away from the lines and risers to decrease

I'd sure like to know how to keep the stows away from the lines......

I think they're referring to the loose lines that run from the risers to the first stow. If there is a lot of slack there, they can entangle with a stow loop, creating a bag lock. That's one of the reasons it's a good idea to have the stows facing the bottom of the pack, so that they're not in proximity to that loose line, and it's less likely that they'll get entangled.

[rehmwa 2]

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The D bag stows have to be away from the lines and risers to decrease

I'd sure like to know how to keep the stows away from the lines......

I think they're referring to the loose lines that run from the risers to the first stow. If there is a lot of slack there, they can entangle with a stow loop, creating a bag lock. That's one of the reasons it's a good idea to have the stows facing the bottom of the pack, so that they're not in proximity to that loose line, and it's less likely that they'll get entangled.

I know, but it was an opportunity for mockery.

and your comment depends on where you route those lines. Too much slack, it's a mess, too little slack, and those lines are more likely hook the corner of the reserve tray. If you route the risers and the 'excess' line down the sides as far as you can, then it keeps it away from the reserve tray, but they your comments about stows to the BOC is backwards. Just drooping them into the center of the tray isn't always a good idea. I try to get them down the sides, then collect them in an organized fashion an position them so they are up against something very unlikely to snag. Neatness in certain areas goes a long ways (lines, bridles, etc) and not a long ways in other areas (flaking, etc). but that's just one guy's opinion based on purposely making mistakes over the years in order to learn thing......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[fasted3 0]

I agree that is a good reason to keep them apart. I've unpacked my rig to have a look and given this some thought. A few things I've been taught have kept me safe without my having fully realized how and why it was working. I'm glad it came up.
I keep my stows small, that gives me a bit extra between the bag and risers. I think a bit too much is a lot better than any too little. Small stows offer less space for anything to get in as well.
My rig could have a problem with the risers getting under the reserve. It turns out the way I packed was to keep them along side rather than underneath. I'll be more concious of that now.
I route the slack down to the bottom of the container. That keeps it as clear of the reserve as it can be. Carefully insertng the bag keeps things where they should be.
As I mentioned before, my d-bag packs up square enough to go in nicely either way, and I think that I'll stay with the grommet up for this rig. I'll be watching out for mistakes while packing, and will know to be careful to not push the risers down too far into the container, no matter which method I use.
I'll keep hoping for no mistakes. Zero defects is a good motto. The last issue of Parachutest pointed out that jump numbers are certainly no guarantee of immunity from mistakes. A license jumpers had zero. Way to go, A's.

But what do I know?

[AFFI 0]

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Trust the manufacturer recommendations

A few people have made the wisest remark concerning the D-Bag placement issue.

DSE,
You are doing great as a young AFF Instructor, conscientious, caring and concerned and I cannot agree more with most of your statements in this thread. You already have a lot of knowledge and in time you are going to be a great AFFI, there is no substitute for experience. Hang in there…

Anyone who does not believe that mistakes are inevitable while tackling the learning curves associated with skydiving can start their mothers out on a Velo – I’ll put mine under a Manta or some other big ass tarp that will keep things really slow.


Bill, Rob, John, Bill, Jim - etcetera:
As always, there are many here on DZ.com who have my utmost respect – fantastic thought provoking comments as always...



Todd,
Todd Todd Todd Todd Todd…
Slow down bigguy.
Much of the crap on DZ.com is written by the inexperienced who think they have it all figured out when the fact is, there are many experienced skydivers who have forgotten more about skydiving than many sub-500 jumpers have even learned yet or in most cases, ever will…
Safety should be the paramount cornerstone of our existence at the DZ - learn and progress in this sport humbly and void of knowitallism and the complacency that leads to disinterest in safety that results in serious injury and death.
Crap pouring out of an inexperienced brain is a lack of humility and an expression of knowitallism – potential breeding grounds for complacency…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

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Back in the Para Commander dayz

Anyone who can start a comment off like this and still walks on all fours commands my attention

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[zoom1 0]

i'm by no means trying to come across as a know it all , in fact i've stated that im a low jumper newbe. i don't post here to try to run people down.but as a new person i know sometimes its hard to get advice at busy dropzones,i jump at a smaller 182 dz and things are a little more laid back and its easier to get help.i will agree with dse that minor mistakes with body position and things like that is ok and you will certianly learn, my point is if you are going to try a different bag orientation and things like this weather you have 5 or 5000 jumps try to get other peoples advice before just trying it to see what happens. when a new person is thinking ,my stows are so tight i have to replace bands every 10 or 12 jumps i think i'll use a bigger band and single wrap the stow and see what happens,if he ends up with line dump he will learn something, my point is that there is a better and safer way to learn .as far as trying to tell other low jumpers to ask before trying something new and hoping for the best, i dont think this is knowitallism or "crap pouring out of an inexperienced brain" i think making statements like this about someone you dont personally know is why new jumpers dont post here.the only advice i've given here is ask a someone for advice before trying something new. from now on i'll keep my sub 500 inexperienced crap to myself and leave it to the almighty skygods

[DSE 3]

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i'm by no means trying to come across as a know it all , in fact i've stated that im a low jumper newbe. i don't post here to try to run people down.but as a new person i know sometimes its hard to get advice at busy dropzones,i jump at a smaller 182 dz and things are a little more laid back and its easier to get help.i will agree with dse that minor mistakes with body position and things like that is ok and you will certianly learn, my point is if you are going to try a different bag orientation and things like this weather you have 5 or 5000 jumps try to get other peoples advice before just trying it to see what happens. when a new person is thinking ,my stows are so tight i have to replace bands every 10 or 12 jumps i think i'll use a bigger band and single wrap the stow and see what happens,if he ends up with line dump he will learn something, my point is that there is a better and safer way to learn .as far as trying to tell other low jumpers to ask before trying something new and hoping for the best, i dont think this is knowitallism or "crap pouring out of an inexperienced brain" i think making statements like this about someone you dont personally know is why new jumpers dont post here.the only advice i've given here is ask a someone for advice before trying something new. from now on i'll keep my sub 500 inexperienced crap to myself and leave it to the almighty skygods

-OP has nearly 2K jumps; I'd expect he's comfortable with experimenting. Big gap between 1800 jumps and 87 jumps. In my OP, I suggested that "experienced" skydivers might experiment. Is 87 skydives/3 years experienced?

-experiments can easily be done on the ground prior to the jump. If you're going to try a different stow band and wrap, I'd recommend tying down the legstraps of the rig and deploying on the packing table to see how things may work. Bigger band AND single wrap is two new things, rather than one-step-at-a-time...I don't imagine you'd go bigger band AND single wrap?

-Same for Dbag deployment experiments, try it on the ground before taking it up in the air; see what works and learn what it looks like it's going to do. Minimize the mistake on the ground first. You'll still make mistakes, but they're informed mistakes.
I think we both agree that intentionality should be to learn as much as possible regardless of the methods used.

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i think making statements like this about someone you dont personally know...

So it's OK to suggest an instructor you don't know is going to die, but it's not OK for an instructor to caution a new jumper....?

Yesterday, we did a photo shoot with an odd prop that was hard to manage in the air. A very experienced jumper was absolutely sure, 110%positive that he knew what was going to happen with the prop. I had a pretty good idea of what I thought might happen with it too. We debated it but at the end of the day, it was my jump and my shoot. As things turned out, he was incorrect in his thinking. To a small degree, so was I.

And now we both are more knowlegeable.

[JohnDeere 0]

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So it's OK to suggest an instructor you don't know is going to die, but it's not OK for an instructor to caution a new jumper....?

Priceless!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[AFFI 0]

A sharing of personal experience...

The drill sergeants from 20 years ago that I remember the most, that gave me habits and taught me lessons that carry through to this very day decades later were the drill sergeants that were the toughest, made life unbearable at the time but I have nothing but gratitude that they were tough on me. There is an old saying that a person cannot "save their ass and face at the same time". Very early in my skydiving I had a choice to either do things my way or go under the extended wing of a canopy coach who taught with an iron fist yet possessed a level of knowledge and experience that I desired so for 500 jumps I did EXACTLY what this particular mentor told me to do even though I did not understand all the "whys". I have been in a situation when I had to put my canopy down after needing to turn 180 degrees UNDER 100 feet with power lines all around, dogs barking in complete chaos and landed in a small clearing the size of a trampoline. One mistake in that situation and I may not be here typing this today but thanks to the willingness of a mentor to lean hard on me and my willingness to shut my mouth, control my ego driven attitude and do what he told me to do - I am better for it today and better prepared for the instances when the chips are down.

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if he ends up with line dump he will learn something

One time a Master Rigger who has been at it longer than I have been alive told me that "true line dump will kill you". I do not know if that is an accurate statement but who am I to call bullshit on someone with such a great deal of knowledge and experience.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Butters 0]

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if he ends up with line dump he will learn something

One time a Master Rigger who has been at it longer than I have been alive told me that "true line dump will kill you". I do not know if that is an accurate statement but who am I to call bullshit on someone with such a great deal of knowledge and experience.

I thought that line dump can lead to a hard opening which can lead to a broken neck, broken back, torn aorta, etc... which can kill you. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[zoom1 0]

this is the opening statment from mountian skills(a northeastern rock climbing school) "rock climbing is inherently dangerous, learning by trial and error is not an option" i think this applies to skydiving as well. if you have 1000's of jumps and want to try stuff fine ,but you don't need to be a skygod to know this is not a good idea for students or newbie's (like myself) and i was blown away by this approach. talking about line dump was only an example. my message is ,students and newbies ask before trying different things with your gear . and i havent stayed alive this long by being driven by an ego, if thats the way i came across i will say i'm sorry i didnt mean to offend anyone

[Butters 0]

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if he ends up with line dump he will learn something

One time a Master Rigger who has been at it longer than I have been alive told me that "true line dump will kill you". I do not know if that is an accurate statement but who am I to call bullshit on someone with such a great deal of knowledge and experience.

I thought that line dump can lead to a hard opening which can lead to a broken neck, broken back, torn aorta, etc... which can kill you. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I should add that getting line dump before line stretch isn't what can kill you (although it can lead to a malfunction). What can kill you is getting line dump and canopy inflation before line stretch ... once again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[DSE 3]

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if you have 1000's of jumps and want to try stuff fine ,but you don't need to be a skygod to know this is not a good idea for students or newbie's (like myself) and i was blown away by this approach.

The original post says;
"If you're an experienced skydiver, I don't see anything wrong with experimenting one step at a time to learn if another idea works for you. Manufacturers are imaginative, creative, and intelligent, but those factors don't mean they always know what's best for your particular method of deploying, flying, etc....
....If you're new...I agree. Follow manufacturer recommendations.


Which part of this wasn't clear? Which part "blew you away?"
Not every new idea in skydiving is related to an incident. Many new ideas are related to a bigger/better/more advanced/timely idea built upon existing tools, techniques, and technology. Or new technology. Each new technique/tool isn't necessarily a solution to a problem but rather a different way of looking at something already existing.

Newbies should skydive "by the book," IMO, but there is value in an experienced skydiver thinking things through, experimenting carefully and with intentionality to discover new aspects related to ever-changing factors in the sport.
One of those factors is Dbags deploying during highspeed, forward motion vs high speed downward motion.
Safety is always paramount.

[AFFI 0]

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this is the opening statment from mountian skills(a northeastern rock climbing school) "rock climbing is inherently dangerous, learning by trial and error is not an option"

I read it from a rock climbing school, so it must be true...

First, what does the dictionary say?

trial and error
–noun-
experimentation or investigation in which various methods or means are tried and faulty ones eliminated in order to find the correct solution or to achieve the desired result or effect.


What does that mean?
Sometimes referred to as discovery learning, trial and error is learning by doing. Students can achieve success sooner if you set a proper example for them to imitate. A proper example reduces the number of errors students make and thus helps to develop their self-confidence. Although the mastering of most skills requires this way of learning to some degree, it does involve some hazards. Think back to when you learned how to ride a bicycle to help you visualize some of the hazards of this way of learning. It can be dangerous to the students and the equipment. It can also become frustrating if repeated trials don’t lead to some success. The Navy Instructor Training School is a good example of where this way of learning is currently used as students present lessons during performance exams. Students receive proper supervision, reinforcement of acceptable performance, and get immediate feedback on how to correct errors.


“There is a principle that is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is condemnation before investigation.” — Spencer

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[dorbie 0]

Screwups can be unrecoverable and fatal it pays to listen to those who have learned the lessons for us. There's a degree of safety that can come with the humility to learn from our betters in the sport. Not just the prolific opinions but master riggers and contemplative gear manufacturers who often make recommendations based on marginally improving your odds over a range of conditions and hundreds of thousands of jumps. Ignoring it may not kill you but if enough people ignore it might just kill someone somewhere sometime eventually.

Your gear manufacturer is qualified to offer an opinion on this. Snags on containers, flaps, gromets and reserve trays are still killing people. Take their advice on how to avoid this with their design.

[mnskydiver688 0]

Gear manufacturers aren't perfect. Why after many years of the same form factor of a sport rig, why are there mandatory service bulletins? Mistakes CAN ALWAYS kill you, but that doesn't mean mistakes WILL ALWAYS kill you. When everything goes well you learn what works, but you become ignorant to what may work better.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[dorbie 0]

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Gear manufacturers aren't perfect. Why after many years of the same form factor of a sport rig, why are there mandatory service bulletins? Mistakes CAN ALWAYS kill you, but that doesn't mean mistakes WILL ALWAYS kill you. When everything goes well you learn what works, but you become ignorant to what may work better.

Learning what works is one thing, learning what doesn't can be fatal. There's an asymmetric relationship between these two lessons in our sport. You cannot know a priori what lesson you're about to learn. Moreover, this being the kind of advice that might mitigate against a relatively rare event you may actually take away the wrong lesson.

No gear maker is perfect, never claimed it, they're still the better option for info on their designs.

Your comment on what can vs. will kill you suggests my related point was lost on you.

[DSE 3]

Back to the topic;
Is there a confirmed example in the last say...15 years of someone experimenting with a Dbag being packed grommet to reserve, grommet to pin, or grommet to rig bottom that has resulted in a fatality?