sebinoslo 0 #1 March 27, 2009 Hi, I will be doing my AFF soon and looked around to check how much a first rig would cost me. living in norway, the market isnt that big and is of course really expensive. I came across the following rig: Container: Atom from Dec. 1990 (fits my height) Main: Sabre 170 from Dec. 1995 (with 400 jumps) Reserve: Cricket 147 from Feb. 1991 I will be buying it from the main skydiving store in Oslo and it has therefore been thoroughly checked. I weight 145-150 lbs so the main is on the small size...but is it too small? renting gear here costs around $30 if you pack it yourself and the rig costs only $900. needless to say that i will be in the money by the end of the summer... How many jumps do you reckon I should have logged before being able to use this rig? And of course: Is this rig just too old to be any good? From what i read around, only after 150/200 jumps do people have an idea about what gear they really want/need; so I guess I would put that many jumps on this rig before reselling it... Thanks for your help. Sebastien Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teigen 0 #2 March 27, 2009 En gammel rigg som du selv sier.. Kjøpte selv bruktrigg gjennom skydesign i februar. De vet hva de snakker om! Foreslår at du hører med de på feltet og! ikke alt brukt som går gjennom butikken. Tar du kurset i Tønsberg? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #3 March 27, 2009 If the main is too small, what do you think about the reserve Older Atoms are fine, even freefly proof (check the main flap walrus teeth though, may need replacing). If it's in good shape, not a bad beginner rig at all. However that reserve is way too small for you and likely the rig will not accomodate a bigger one, you didn't say which container size the Atom is (0 or 00 most likely). You want a reserve at wingload 1.0 or preferably less, meaning you want a 180sqft or bigger. What about an AAD? AFAIK you're required to have one in Norway, and even if you're not, it's a damn good idea to get one. So factor that in the cost. All in all, it's a bad idea to buy gear before you have an idea of what you want and what your instructors think is a good size and model for you (plus what the local rules are), which you won't have before you have 20-50 jumps. You may very well even quit before you get to that point. So good deal or not, I'd skip on it for now. When you're ready to buy, ask your instructors to help and get a rigger to check the rig over. There'll be other deals ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #4 March 27, 2009 QuoteEn gammel rigg som du selv sier.. Kjøpte selv bruktrigg gjennom skydesign i februar. De vet hva de snakker om! Foreslår at du hører med de på feltet og! ikke alt brukt som går gjennom butikken. Tar du kurset i Tønsberg? Nei, eg skal til Skånes ved Malmö...kjempe billig AFF der :-) kjøper gjennom skydesign jeg ja... vi snakkes/sees sikkert senere Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #5 March 27, 2009 Quote However that reserve is way too small for you and likely the rig will not accomodate a bigger one, you didn't say which container size the Atom is (0 or 00 most likely). You want a reserve at wingload 1.0 or preferably less, meaning you want a 180sqft or bigger. I will stop by the shop tonight so I can ask them. It will be a good chance for me to learn more about equipment and such too. Quote What about an AAD? AFAIK you're required to have one in Norway, and even if you're not, it's a damn good idea to get one. So factor that in the cost. I don't think an AAD (Cypres & Co) is a requirement. But I do plan on getting one anyway. Quote All in all, it's a bad idea to buy gear before you have an idea of what you want and what your instructors think is a good size and model for you (plus what the local rules are), which you won't have before you have 20-50 jumps. Thanks for your advice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #6 March 27, 2009 Also ask if there's an age limit in gear in Norway: if you can only jump gear up to 20 years old that rig + reserve are getting close. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #7 March 27, 2009 Quote If the main is too small, what do you think about the reserve My question should maybe start a new thread but the answer might be so obvious I'm the only one wondering that.. Why should the reserve be about as big as the main? My understanding is that the reserve is here to save your life in case things go bad, meaning slowing you down enough so as not to die once hitting the ground. By having it "as big as" the main it is actually a canopy you can easily maneuver and land as softly as usually.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #8 March 27, 2009 2 schools of thought: 1) reserve size should be same size as main, so they'll behave when in a 2out situation 2) reserve size has nothing to do with main size but should be a canopy you can land anywhere safely in crappy conditions (bad spot, going downwind, having to land in someone's small backyard) under high stress (just after a malfunction). Since the reserve is a different canopy type than the main you'll be jumping, with less flare and other flight characteristics, and you'll have very little altitude to come to grips with that, you want it BIG so you don't get hurt. Also most reserves esp older ones simply aren't made to handle more than wingload 1. And you're assuming you're wide awake and in good physical and mental shape, and the reserve in 100% flying shape, not a 100% given after a malfunction. It's your LAST chance. 90% of all reserve landings I've seen (and done) of people with less than say 1000 jumps were not pretty stand-up landings. And that included myself at a few hundred jumps with a wingload of .8 I still hurt myself a little bit, landing on our own grassy dropzone and doing an intentional cutaway so I was prepared too. Even a reserve as big as your main will not land you as softly without a lot of skill. So go big ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #9 March 27, 2009 The reserve canopy design and materials are now very much different from most common main canopies. Most reserves are not zp fabric and are not higher efficency airfoils. There is no way I'd routinely jump a wing loading more than 1:1 on a reserve type canopy. But even intermediate jumpers can jump 1:5 and higher on zp, high efficient mains. That being said reserves are usually equivalent to very or brand new canopies, have lower porosity than non zp canopies with 100 jumps on them, and usually give a reasonable landing for the loading. Nobody MADE a main much smaller than 170 before zp. Now sub 100 are common, being jumped by people that couldn't jump less than 220 when mains were like reserves. And you should expect to walk away from your reserve landing, not just survive.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,257 #10 March 27, 2009 Quote Why should the reserve be about as big as the main? My understanding is that the reserve is here to save your life in case things go bad, meaning slowing you down enough so as not to die once hitting the ground. By having it "as big as" the main it is actually a canopy you can easily maneuver and land as softly as usually.. Uh, yeah. Why would you choose to fly a reserve that is just about good enough to not kill you when you can just as easily have one that you can land safely and with no added drama?Seriously, do not buy a rig until you have done your AFF. You need to know enough to know what to look for...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #11 March 27, 2009 QuoteUh, yeah. Why would you choose to fly a reserve that is just about good enough to not kill you when you can just as easily have one that you can land safely and with no added drama? I simply find it interesting to ask questions and learn about the why's and because's of the sport. And since there were already two interesting, well-formulated replies I could have done without the attitude you showed in yours... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #12 March 27, 2009 QuoteSeriously, do not buy a rig until you have done your AFF. What he said. You don't know if you're going to enjoy skydiving yet. If you must spend money on skydiving RIGHT NOW, spend it on goggles, gloves, and maybe an altimeter and a helmet - these are items you'll probably be able to use on your student jumps. Save buying a rig until you're done with AFF and have gotten the advice of instructors who have actually seen you fly and land a parachute. There will still be good deals out there then too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebcat 0 #13 March 27, 2009 QuoteWhat about an AAD? AFAIK you're required to have one in Norway I want to know more about this, I couldn't find any information about it in any F/NLF publication. sebinoslo: I take it you know about Sky Design, but it might be a good idea to check out Uffes Hopp Shop too, given the state of the economy and the fact that you're traveling to Sweden for your AFF training. They have a "used gear" section: http://www.uffeshoppshop.se/index.php?dnode=49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sebinoslo 0 #14 March 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat about an AAD? AFAIK you're required to have one in Norway I want to know more about this, I couldn't find any information about it in any F/NLF publication. "Nødåpner anbefales på det sterkeste og er obligatorisk om man ikke har LOR." "AAD are highly recommended and are mandatory if there are no LOR" this was taken from a freefly security brochure made by skywalkers and HELIX: http://www.freefly.no/docs/freeflysikkerhet.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #15 March 28, 2009 Quote Quote If the main is too small, what do you think about the reserve My question should maybe start a new thread but the answer might be so obvious I'm the only one wondering that.. Why should the reserve be about as big as the main? Because when you have to use your reserve you're going to have less altitude to get to an optimal landing area, be more likely to be incapacitated when landing it (you may have a broken femur from a hard opening which blew up your main), be much less familiar with how the canopy flies compared with your main, and want to have more square footage to minimize your chances of breaking something when you land down-wind in a parking lot or other bad location. Quote My understanding is that the reserve is here to save your life in case things go bad, meaning slowing you down enough so as not to die once hitting the ground. The reserve is there to land you safely like your main. Quote By having it "as big as" the main it is actually a canopy you can easily maneuver and land as softly as usually.. Exactly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #16 March 28, 2009 Definitely wait till you have done AFF. It looks like reasonable gear, the reserve is a size too small, you should aim for a 160 or larger. You might want to wait a bit and demo canopies like the Sabre2/Safire2/Pilot, Spectre also seems to be very popular. I've flown a Sabre 170 and I weigh the exact same as you. No way would the CI have let me fly it straight off AFF. You will be doing jumps on rentals either way so take the opportunity to demo around. Plus your missing out on the instructors input, they will be the guys who REALLY know what you're capable of and what canopy you should be flying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #17 March 29, 2009 The size of the reserve should eliminate this from consideration."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
