Unstable 8 #1 February 25, 2009 I apologize if this has been covered before. I'm snooping around for a chest reserve to practice on, and I keep running into these.... All over Ebay, and all over different surplus shops. I've seen them as old as 1947. Who "certifies" this stuff as the ads claim? Do they really have some rigger willing to stamp off a 50 year old surplus container as airworthy to sell to the public? Am I being to pessimistic about the condition of this stuff, or is this straight up false advertising?=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 February 25, 2009 I'd ask them. Since it includes a date, I'd guess a rigger repacked it and signed it off. That's a recertification of the airworthyness of the system.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #3 February 25, 2009 I think I'm going to ask them... I'd like a chest mount reserve for my own collection, but I know no rigger that I know of would sign off and sell a 50+ year old piece of history. Granted, I'm willing to bet that it's exmilitary riggers...They would be most familiar with the system..=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 February 25, 2009 If they are an ex-military rigger, and they never got their FAA cert, it ain't legal. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #5 February 25, 2009 it says Faa cert on the advertisement, but that webbing wold be cotton (wouldn't it?), i wouldn't trust 50 year old cotton webbing."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #6 February 25, 2009 Having been "certified" by a rigger in 2006 means nothing today. The repack then is out of date now. It is kind of a low risk way to enhance it market value. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #7 February 25, 2009 Just because something is old don't mean it's not airworthy! I know a number of warbird pilots who have navy chest packs just like the one in your photo and yes I also know the master rigger / DPRE who dose their repacks. are they 50 yrs old, I would guess not, but I'm sure more then 20. Having a number of older warts in my collection as well as mains that are well past 20yrs. from the 60's & 70's I have no problem signing and sealing them and jumping them. But I wouldn't buy the crap your talking about on ebay.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #8 February 25, 2009 Quote Do they really have some rigger willing to stamp off a 50 year old surplus container as airworthy Who knows, it is possible. One rigging attitude is to not pack something if one doesn't feel comfortable with the safety overall, according to more modern standards. A different one is to pack something if it meets all the regular standards according to the normal rigging tests. The ad of course fails to mention what canopy is in there. In rigging we don't have a good handle on loss of strength of webbing over time, and we don't (in US & Canada) have arbitrary life limits. The military will have better data but it isn't something most riggers have access to. So a rigger might have packed the thing, saying that the webbing looks OK the best he can tell, and that he pull tested the hell out of the canopy but it passed. Maybe he hoped the thing would tear, but it didn't, so he had no hard evidence that the rig was unairworthy. I had a situation like that one time when I was faced with a 40 year old ex-military rig for a glider pilot. I packed it but gave the guy plenty of advice on why he might want to upgrade. A buddy's belly wart reserve container for his Para Commander rig is a '57, but the canopy is newer and it isn't as if he's hawking the thing on eBay. By '58, containers should all be nylon, considering the US was getting into nylon before the end of WWII. To find an old belly wart to practice packing on, another avenue is to find a DZ that's been open 30+ years, to see what they have in the closet! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #9 February 25, 2009 I got a never issued, service life expired 24' t-10 reserve in it's original packaging, fully assembled with a COTTON container in abou 1981. The reserve was from the early 70's I think. They used cotton containers a lot longer than the 50's.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #11 February 25, 2009 Yes there are riggers who will pack virtually anything. If it looks marginally complete, isn't broken and they can't put their thumb through the canopy (the old fabric strength test which one current manufacture wants you to use) they pack it. I took over packing parachutes at the local warbird museum about 10 years ago, about 1997. The guy who was packing the stuff was one of the local master riggers from the late 60's. The crap he was packing was unbelieveable. Many of the rigs were military seats from the 50's that had mismatched parts, severely faded webbing and containers, and canopies that look like they had been used for car covers. I immediately grounded 90% of what the museum owned. Some local pilots that flew for them had the same crap. I've educated and upgraded all of them, or they've went somewhere else. One guy had a couple of Korean War era seats thay he used. I refused to pack them avter the other guy retired but there was a local newbie rigger who was happy to. Later he had gotten some 1970's military seats that looked like brand new. At the time I wasn't willing to pack rounds without some type of deployment device, diaper, bag, sleeve and I knew the other guy would. Later, after the newbie left town the guy call me again to pack his seats. Thinking they were the newer ones I agreed to go them. When I went to pick them up they were the ones from the 50's again. And I refused to do them again. Some warbird pilots want 'vintage' parachutes to go with their vintage planes. These are the guys that plan on never leaving the plane. Which I understand until the fire is licking your boots, the wing falls off the antique, or you flying over the smokey mountains and loose the engine with nothing flat bigger than a potatoe patch. I don't much care if they want a vintage parachute and I don't much care if another rigger wants to pack it. But it won't have my name on it. BTW would the parachutes I refused to pack have worked? Probably. But I'm just not that greedy. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #12 February 25, 2009 If you just want a training aid (to earn a chest-type rigger's rating) sure, buy them. However, I am suspicious of any canopy more than 25 or 30 years old.\ Yes, this closet queen might have been carefully stored, so it looks like new, but there have been a lot of technological advances since then, like diapers, steering vents, spiral spring pilot chutes, etc. It will probably still open fine at low airspeeds, but I would not trust it at head-down speeds. The other issue is that packing this twenty or a hundred times will teach you the finer points of packing 50 year old gear, but will not be relevant for modern chest reserves like the BASER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #13 February 25, 2009 Quote They used cotton containers a lot longer than the 50's. He's right, I was wrong. Some containers for T-10's, Para Commanders, etc, through the 60s at least, were cotton. And it's right in Poynters too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #14 February 26, 2009 Quote However, I am suspicious of any canopy more than 25 or 30 years old.\ I have a ram air canopy built in I think 1986. So by your standards you would be suspicious of it? It is a Joule built by Bill Garganos of Quantum Parachutes. It was my mothers and only has like 200 jumps on it. While it is F111 and is fairly old, it's in excellent condition. I haven't jumped it yet but plan on it soon. Or are you only talking about reserves or rounds? Edited to add suspicious in a few years..not nowwww.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g2gjump 0 #15 February 26, 2009 I think he is mostly talking about round parachutes that were built in the acid mesh era. Also, Who knows what could have crawled into the canopy during storage... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #16 February 26, 2009 I was guessing based on the canopy features that he was talking about that he was referring to rounds. I have a SAC that I have been contemplating getting acid mesh tested to see if I can still use it as a reserve.....now THAT is probably more like what he is referring to www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 February 26, 2009 QuoteI think he is mostly talking about round parachutes that were built in the acid mesh era. Also, Who knows what could have crawled into the canopy during storage... ........................................................................ YUP! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #18 February 27, 2009 So at what point would you say a ram air becomes suspicious? Would it just be based on the individual canopy and the condition of it?www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteS 0 #19 February 27, 2009 Be careful of the joule and other canopies of that line, it may knock the snot right out of you! I have owned a Quark and only would use it for clear and pulls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #20 February 27, 2009 Quote Many of the rigs were military seats from the 50's that had mismatched parts, severely faded webbing and containers, and canopies that look like they had been used for car covers. I immediately grounded 90% of what the museum owned. Some local pilots that flew for them had the same crap. I've educated and upgraded all of them, or they've went somewhere else. Ha! I think I purchased one of those a couple of years ago to practice seat packs. I love taking it to the DZ ... scares the hell out of people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #21 February 27, 2009 that's good to know. I don't know how many joules were made but I have the second one he made serial JM002. Like I said, I haven't jumped it yet. Bill still has the first one he made www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #22 February 28, 2009 § 105.3____ Definitions. For the purposes of this part— Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C–23 series), or a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute (other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or any other military designation or specification number. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #23 February 28, 2009 It might even be a silk or cotton fiber canopy. Why not put it on a test dummy and static line it ? Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
