Racer

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I think Racer users and admirers should have their on forum on DZ.com.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[mccordia 73]

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I'll take your word on that as I am not even sure at this point you and I are talking about the same thing anymore.

Clever way of evading the fact that even people such as Bill Booth think what you are saying is nonsense and not possible...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[3331 120]

Douglas Spotted Eagle,

This is your video from PIA 2007, the only time you ever met John Sherman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh5hnkW2K-Q

John does not claim to have invented the modern day closing pin.

Please tell us where you heard this nonsense.

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

[gearless_chris 1]

Jump it! I like how the rig flexes between the main and reserve. The one I jumped is probably 100 years old (may be exaggerated), and was at least as comfortable as my new Vector 3 with spacer foam. Just don't use the two sided RSL, or freefly with it.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[DSE 3]

I know what John said to me prior to camera rolling, I'm clear on what was clarified to me in the hallway at the Silver Legacy with others present. You're right, it is nonsense.

Back to point, I (and all the wingsuiters out there) would like to see evidence of John's claim that dynamic corners will cause a PC to wrap around deploying lines due to reduced friction on the Dbag, or that the PC, once in clean air and has extracted the pin, will fall back into the burble, leaving the Dbag to "fall out" of the container on its own.
That is the context of this discussion both here and in the wingsuit forum; it's been continually evaded.

I wouldn't have an issue with it, had I not received an unsolicited email from a JumpShack-sponsored skydiver telling me that my new rig is dangerous. Marketing is one thing; FUD is another.

If someone is going make very specific claims that my rig is going to malfunction, is it wrong to demand hard data supporting those claims?

[billvon 2,471]

It is interesting that this comes up around now. Bill Booth spent part of this PIA advocating hesitator or staging loops, devices that slow release of the reserve freebag until the pilot chute is nearly fully deployed. (In throwout-deployed mains, of course, the same function is performed by the closing pin and bridle.)

[hookitt 0]

What context was used claiming a problem related to your new VooDoo?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[MikeForsythe 0]

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Clever way of evading the fact that even people such as Bill Booth think what you are saying is nonsense and not possible...

As if Bill is always right. Even he will tell you otherwise. Bill also says that there have been thousands and thousands of jumps on the skyhook............even though the skyhook was not used Everyone makes claims that are out there every now and then, just some people are fighting for first place

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[LouDiamond 1]

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I know what John said to me prior to camera rolling, I'm clear on what was clarified to me in the hallway at the Silver Legacy with others present. You're right, it is nonsense.

Back to point, I (and all the wingsuiters out there) would like to see evidence of John's claim that dynamic corners will cause a PC to wrap around deploying lines due to reduced friction on the Dbag, or that the PC, once in clean air and has extracted the pin, will fall back into the burble, leaving the Dbag to "fall out" of the container on its own.
That is the context of this discussion both here and in the wingsuit forum; it's been continually evaded.

I wouldn't have an issue with it, had I not received an unsolicited email from a JumpShack-sponsored skydiver telling me that my new rig is dangerous. Marketing is one thing; FUD is another.

If someone is going make very specific claims that my rig is going to malfunction, is it wrong to demand hard data supporting those claims?

Thank you. You cleared it up. You and I are not talking about the same thing. What you are focusing on is a potential problem that can arise. Just like a hack can wrap itself up in a bridle, albeit rare, it can and does happen on occassion.

The point in this and the other thread was and is the importance of friction staging to ensure proper deployment sequence. Lack there of can potentially lead to the problem you are doubting. Friction staging, used by every rig mfgr out there in both the main and reserve containers for a reason.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

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Thank you. You cleared it up. You and I are not talking about the same thing. What you are focusing on is a potential problem that can arise. Just like a hack can wrap itself up in a bridle, albeit rare, it can and does happen on occassion.

The point in this and the other thread was and is the importance of friction staging to ensure proper deployment sequence. Lack there of can potentially lead to the problem you are doubting. Friction staging, used by every rig mfgr out there in both the main and reserve containers for a reason.

I'm glad you clarified.
So at the end of the day, we're all in agreement that dynamic corners are NOT any kind of a threat as everyone somehow misunderstood in this and other threads, right?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Thank you. You cleared it up. You and I are not talking about the same thing. What you are focusing on is a potential problem that can arise. Just like a hack can wrap itself up in a bridle, albeit rare, it can and does happen on occassion.

The point in this and the other thread was and is the importance of friction staging to ensure proper deployment sequence. Lack there of can potentially lead to the problem you are doubting. Friction staging, used by every rig mfgr out there in both the main and reserve containers for a reason.

I'm glad you clarified.
So at the end of the day, we're all in agreement that dynamic corners are NOT any kind of a threat as everyone somehow misunderstood in this and other threads, right?

I give up. Someone else want to give it a go?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[gearless_chris 1]

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Thank you. You cleared it up. You and I are not talking about the same thing. What you are focusing on is a potential problem that can arise. Just like a hack can wrap itself up in a bridle, albeit rare, it can and does happen on occassion.

The point in this and the other thread was and is the importance of friction staging to ensure proper deployment sequence. Lack there of can potentially lead to the problem you are doubting. Friction staging, used by every rig mfgr out there in both the main and reserve containers for a reason.

I'm glad you clarified.
So at the end of the day, we're all in agreement that dynamic corners are NOT any kind of a threat as everyone somehow misunderstood in this and other threads, right?

I give up. Someone else want to give it a go?

Who breaks up the fights between you Greenies? I have many friends that jump Racers. I know one of them has a rig with the corners cut down, maybe not completely but most of the way, it is a BOC/ pullout. I only have about a dozen jumps on that rig but he has several thousand on it. He's almost went in more times than anyone can count, but not because of the corners of his container, not yet anyway.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[mccordia 73]

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I give up. Someone else want to give it a go?

neeh..you seem to be doing a pretty good job at the spin-docter thing yourself

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Unstable 8]

I'm on my 3rd new Racer and I absolutly love them.

Funny Story #1: The former 2 Directors of our Dropzone were coincidently Wings Dealers. They are good folks and are both here on DZ.com. We were a 'Wings' Dropzone. I think then almost all the staff and half of the newly licenensed jumpers bought wings. Wings even $sponsored$ an event or two. Long story short, the two wings dealers left, one to FL and one to NY. Now we have no wings dealers and 2 Jumpshack dealers - and now we went from 1 racer (me) to quite a few. Nancy Even sent us all Her Demo Rigs for our Turbine Bash.

The point of my story isn't to bash one or the other or make remarks about how experienced jumpers affect the gear choices of younger ones - but to kinda show how you can go from one DZ and wonder why nobody jumps -x-- rig or why all the cool kids jump --- rig. It's not that complicated, just what's available.


Funny story #2: I am learning to shoot classic, and I'm pretty terrible right now (came in last at the last meet...) but hey, I'm trying. I wanted a GOOD classic rig to learn on, and after talking extensivly with sales people from all major gear manufacturers, only Jumpshack, North American Aerodynamics, and Rigging Innovations seemed to know anything about building a rig for accuracy. The others kept trying to sell me oversized student rigs. I think there is virtue in going with a company with that experiecnce.

Sorry my funny stories arn't that funny.

Take care!

=========Shaun ==========

[pilotdave 0]

We used to have a lot of racers. They've mostly been replaced by Vortex rigs. Almost never see those anywhere else, but we have tons of em because of a couple people.

UPT can make an accuracy rig too... we have one acc guy that uses a Vector3 specially made for acc. They left off the internal riser covers.

The nicest looking acc rig I've ever seen is a Wings, BTW. Looks like a sport rig. But most of our acc guys seem to like the RI Classic Pro rigs, or Racers.

Dave

[billvon 2,471]

> I know one of them has a rig with the corners cut down, maybe not
>completely but most of the way, it is a BOC/ pullout.

This is sort of worst case.

The issue here is that you want to retain the bag until the bridle gets to full extension, so the very first thing that happens once the bag is free is that it gets accelerated away from the container (to prevent the lines from going all over, to get a good payout of lines etc.) If the bag and pilot chute become free at the same time, you could have them both "racing" to the end of the lines/bridle - and this can result in bag locks, PC/line entanglements, lineovers etc.

This is a problem with reserves and pullouts, because as soon as you pull the pin, the container is open, and the only thing holding the freebag/dbag in the container is friction from the bag to the sides. So a tight fit is essential. There are problems with this, of course. Too loose and you get a premature bag release; this can happen with floppy/older rigs and/or small reserves in large containers. Too tight and the bag may not release at all.

There are several ways around this. One simple way is to use a pin or a loop to keep the container closed until the bridle is at full extension. That is how throwouts work, and Bill Booth is now suggesting we do the same thing with reserves via a hesitator or staging loop. This keeps the reserve in the container until there's a lot of drag on the PC.

Thus throwouts, in general, don't have the same level of problem with this that pullouts do, because they get their staging a different way. If the PC has enough drag/extension to pull the pin, it's going to generally keep pulling as the container opens. A tight fit (i.e. sewn corners) then helps you most during out of sequence deployments, when the pin is pulled before the PC is deployed. A tight main container with sewn corners can help the dbag to sit there while you throw the PC, resulting in a normal deployment.

[Megatron 0]

I put 3 jumps on my Racer this past weekend. Im still here & in one piece so I can't complain. I like how small the rig is without feeling overstuffed. Its fairly comfortable despite the fit being about as small it can be for a guy my size. One complaint that I do have is the hardware for the chest strap & leg straps..no matter how I tighten them & make sure they're secure the leg straps always loosen after opening and the chest strap does somewhat as well. The fact that the rig is a bit small is actually a good thing since even when the straps are not tightened at all, its still a fairly good fit for me otherwise I would be worried. The velcro is a pain in the ass too. Its an ok rig..esspecially for the price buy I don't know how anyone would be all gung ho about these things. I'm definitely switching to my voodoo when it comes in.

[DSE 3]

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This is a problem with reserves and pullouts, because as soon as you pull the pin, the container is open, and the only thing holding the freebag/dbag in the container is friction from the bag to the sides. So a tight fit is essential. There are problems with this, of course. Too loose and you get a premature bag release; this can happen with floppy/older rigs and/or small reserves in large containers. Too tight and the bag may not release at all.

There are several ways around this. One simple way is to use a pin or a loop to keep the container closed until the bridle is at full extension. That is how throwouts work, and Bill Booth is now suggesting we do the same thing with reserves via a hesitator or staging loop. This keeps the reserve in the container until there's a lot of drag on the PC.

Thus throwouts, in general, don't have the same level of problem with this that pullouts do, because they get their staging a different way. If the PC has enough drag/extension to pull the pin, it's going to generally keep pulling as the container opens. A tight fit (i.e. sewn corners) then helps you most during out of sequence deployments, when the pin is pulled before the PC is deployed. A tight main container with sewn corners can help the dbag to sit there while you throw the PC, resulting in a normal deployment.

In this context Bill, this makes perfect sense. In the context of the other threads linked above, it's a wingsuit-related discussion, and wingsuiters know Pull Out Devices shouldn't be used due to the burble issues. I believe this is very common knowledge, and is covered in every First Flight Course, or should be.

For giggles, just tossed my Voodoo across the room with the pin out, and did the same with both my Talon FX (closed corners) and my Mirage (closed corners). The Dbag came out of the Mirage when it landed on the unholstered chair, but the Talon and Voodoo did not. The Dbag coming out of the Mirage may have merely been a fluke.

Hardly a scientific test, but demonstrable that the bag isn't going to just "fall out," and in the case of the Voodoo, the bottom opens while the sides still retain shape/tension, so the container is essentially a three-sided box with at least enough tension on the sides to hold the Dbag in place with minimal forward velocity and mild impact.
I'd submit this is more than enough friction to hold the bag in place, and it's been the position that myself and other wingsuiters have held since this somewhat hollow argument against dynamic corners (often known as a 'wingsuit modification') surfaced.
It seems there is no data to support that dynamic corners on a throwout system is evil nor prone to malfunction. Hopefully this myth is busted for good?

[gearless_chris 1]

For giggles, just tossed my Voodoo across the room with the pin out, and did the same with both my Talon FX (closed corners) and my Mirage (closed corners).


Did you get that on video for us? That'd be great for the Summerfest film fest.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[The111 1]

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I give up. Someone else want to give it a go?

Don't give up yet, I'm still trying to understand your original post here, the one that has caused all the argument.

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When the D bag immediately comes free simultaneously as the pin is pulled it can accelerate and as stated, rise above or even with the PC/bridle.

Here you are talking about the bag "rising above or even with the PC" in the absence of friction staging. Despite literally dozens of requests to explain how this is possible with a throwout system, you still have not.

Yes, if the pin is popped early (by an unexpected external force, not by the PC), then the bag can indeed fall out and you will have a horse shoe malfunction. But you would not describe that as "the bag rising even with or above the PC"... you would describe that as the bag being out and the PC being in... a simple horse shoe. When you say the bag is "accelerating toward/past the PC"... you are implying the PC is out already, and that a normal sequence deployment is already in process. So... how can a bag rise past a tensioned bridle and inflated PC, with a throwout deployment system?

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Unstable 8]

Hey hey Hey I got one.



How can you tell if the jumper you're talking to is a Racer Owner?

- Just wait 30 seconds. They'll tell you.

=========Shaun ==========

[Unstable 8]

Douglas,

Did you do an interview with John Sherman this year at PIA? Did JS Have a booth?

=========Shaun ==========

[stitch 0]

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Douglas,

Did you do an interview with John Sherman this year at PIA? Did JS Have a booth?

My name isn't Doug. It's about time for you to set down that bong.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[neandertal 0]

There is a few more reasons to jump a Racer:
-I never saw one single case of premature opening on Racer;
-You check your reserve pins on the ground and forget it. Your friends can kick you on the back, you can rest your back against any military aircraft seat or hit the top of the door at the exit (see that nice picture of a "sloppy tandem exit at Skydive Magazine #330) ;
-Your packer can route the main's bridle in any direction and it will not cause a pilot chute in tow;
-Your packer can close the main container in any order he or she thinks it's right and it will not cause a pilot chute in tow;
-The only harness made from type XIII;
-The only rig on the market that you can custom order to a specific size of main and reserve canopy.

I'm not a Racer fanatic. I just couldn't find anything better to worship.

No Drogue, no JUMP!!

[ficus 0]

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There is a few more reasons to jump a Racer:
-I never saw one single case of premature opening on Racer;
-You check your reserve pins on the ground and forget it. Your friends can kick you on the back, you can rest your back against any military aircraft seat or hit the top of the door at the exit (see that nice picture of a "sloppy tandem exit at Skydive Magazine #330) ;

I had a picture of a horseshoe on a Racer published in Skydiving #321. Maybe you hadn't started subscribing yet? ;)