skydived19006 4 #1 October 13, 2008 I understand that some fellows out of KC did a demo into the KU game Saturday. The wind was gusting to 30 MPH, and all the area DZs were down for wind at the time (to my knowledge). One of my folks was on the phone with someone at the game. My response was "Have them call back when they're on the ground, I'd be interested to know how that works out for them." I guess everyone got down ok. No problem then? I've been involved in a couple of "interesting demos", but god damn! Jumping a stadium with strong gusting wind? As an S&TA, the term I'd apply to that is simply "STUPID. " Well maybe "FUCKING STUPID!" MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #2 October 13, 2008 I agree. Now I understand that these are all pro-rated skydivers with years of experience, but jumping in 30mph gusts is just plain stupid. Jumping into a stadium with winds like that, is as you said, fucking stupid. Now, it definitely sounds like they got lucky, as the turbulence created from 30mph gusts over a stadium has got to wreak havok on the inside. Definitely some potential for a really nasty collapse.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,079 #3 October 14, 2008 It would appear there where two 30 mph spike points, but most of the day in Lawrence was around 18-19 MPH with the usual (in our area) drop-off at 6PM. What time was the game? Lawrence Wind Gust Graph - Scroll DownNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #4 October 14, 2008 30 mph??? Holy fucking donkey shit! I personally pulled the plug at the last minute on a demo my team was doing 1000 miles from my home, because the winds were 16 mph steady with higher gusts. Now I could have done the jump and two of my teammates could have done it as well, but not our flag bearer. I couldn't take the chance over a congested city. Those guys, well I'd have to hear, or rather, read their side of the story, but at first glance, I'd say they were incredibly selfish, and yes, fucking stupid. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #5 October 14, 2008 QuoteIt would appear there where two 30 mph spike points, but most of the day in Lawrence was around 18-19 MPH with the usual (in our area) drop-off at 6PM. What time was the game? Lawrence Wind Gust Graph - Scroll Down Wonder what time the jump was. Looking at that chart, it appears that there were some hefty winds at times for a stadium demo, even without the gusts.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,079 #6 October 14, 2008 Well, that's why I ask, Chuck. See, the thing is... here in Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas if you don't learn to jump in 20 mph winds, you may just never get to jump till after 6PM. It's one of the reasons students in this area take longer than most areas to get their A license.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #7 October 14, 2008 Quote It's one of the reasons students in this area take longer than most areas to get their A license. That's good to know. I had always heard it was just because they were slow learners._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #8 October 14, 2008 QuoteWell, that's why I ask, Chuck. See, the thing is... here in Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas if you don't learn to jump in 20 mph winds, you may just never get to jump till after 6PM. It's one of the reasons students in this area take longer than most areas to get their A license. Oh yes, I remember the nationals in Muskogee well - a wind hold everyday by 11am. Not all of Texas is so bad though. C'mon down to Houston where we have winds that area a bit friendlier, sometimes even calm right in the middle of the day!Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,079 #9 October 14, 2008 Kevin, you get one demerit. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #10 October 14, 2008 I'm glad we don't get winds like that out WestWhen we need wind we just turn those fans on the County has nicely put up for us. Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #11 October 15, 2008 Ever since they started using squares and not rounds anymore, it took all the fun out of it.........No more "who can catch the student" game, barbwire fences weren't to hold the cows in,, but the stop those getting dragged along that we missed. you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ASTKU 1 #12 October 15, 2008 QuoteWonder what time the jump was. Looking at that chart, it appears that there were some hefty winds at times for a stadium demo, even without the gusts. The game started at 11:30 central time so Im assuming the demo was right before that..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,079 #13 October 15, 2008 Especially in Tahlequah... Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #14 October 15, 2008 Quote Quote It would appear there where two 30 mph spike points, but most of the day in Lawrence was around 18-19 MPH with the usual (in our area) drop-off at 6PM. What time was the game? Lawrence Wind Gust Graph - Scroll Down Wonder what time the jump was. Looking at that chart, it appears that there were some hefty winds at times for a stadium demo, even without the gusts. What's the big deal...it's only wind, ya can't even SEE it...how's it gonna hurt ya! What could POSSIBLY go wrong?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yjumpinoz 0 #15 October 17, 2008 Besides, a demo jump is just another skydive..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #16 October 20, 2008 QuoteIt would appear there where two 30 mph spike points, but most of the day in Lawrence was around 18-19 MPH with the usual (in our area) drop-off at 6PM. What time was the game? Lawrence Wind Gust Graph - Scroll Down Ok, so the wind wasn't quite as bad as I made it out to be, just 20, gusting to 25 at 11:00 am. I should reconsider my wind limits for demos. If we raised it to 25 for in town stuff with the typical no down wind outs, turbulence, etc., we'd have to cancel a lot less! More money for us!!! Then again, we're just a DZ who will put together four folks every once in a while to do a demo. We're not "Professionals", apparently the wind doesn't affect their canopies like it does us non professionals. I can't say that I knew this, I learned something today. http://www.falconexhibitionskydiving.com/Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #17 October 20, 2008 Well, you could report to the insurance carrier that this team exceeded the safety limits, which in turn could raise their rates, but then again, that increase gets passed off to the customers... So what would you rather do to try and get them to do it right from now on? "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #18 October 20, 2008 Quote Well, you could report to the insurance carrier that this team exceeded the safety limits, which in turn could raise their rates, but then again, that increase gets passed off to the customers... So what would you rather do to try and get them to do it right from now on? There have been quite a few emails, and phone conversations. I was not the primary person, but involved. The USPA RD is involved, conversations with the FSDO, etc. The insurance carrier doesn't really care. They very well may deny a claim in a situation such as this, it gives them an out. They were contacted as well, Insurance Technologies that is. As long as no BSRs were violated (wind limit suggestions for demonstration jumps are not in section 2), USPA has nothing to "prosecute." The FAA has nothing in the FARS regarding wind limits for skydiving, so no violation. The guy at the FSDO has been educated a little bit over the last few days. Basically didn't know enough to know what he didn't know. He may now require something in the notes on the waiver regarding wind. In the end, this team knowing that educated folks are watching may help. I wouldn't want to be the subject of a forum post such as this. Let alone all the emails, and phone conversations that have occurred over the last few days. It's also funny (to me) how people perceive the SIM as rules, when only chapter two are "requirements." On top of that, the BSRs only apply to USPA members. For instance I can legally take a 10 year old for a tandem jump. If I'm not a member of USPA, and jumping Eclipse gear, there's no violation of anything, and I can thumb my nose at USPA! Check with your RD and see if you can get a waiver to something in any section of the SIM, other than Section 2. He/she will tell you 'No, it's not a BSR. We can not give a waiver.' Or 'You don't need a waiver.' At that point your only concern is everyone's safety. If someone or something does get hurt, if violating "industry standard practice" will cause you to lose in court. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #19 October 22, 2008 I hate to write this without checking but in the FAA Waiver for jumps over congested areas, wind limits have been listed for Demos I have done in the past. I am going to grab a few and look to see the wording. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtime1 2 #20 October 23, 2008 A prior practice preferred by our FSDO was a narrative of a demo submitted with the Application for Certificate of Waiver or Author. (FAA 7711-2) In that narrative I usually state what the maximum ground winds will be for the jump. Some may say "too much information", maybe. I have developed/nurtured a respectful relationship with the local FAA. In 20+ years of doing demos I really don't like that time 30 min. to take off when the wind is marginal and "I will if you will" becomes the game plan. Stating our maximum allowable winds helps keep us honest (so to speak). The winds I list are based on numerous factors and vary for each demo. Years ago max. winds were listed on Cert. of Auth. received back from the FAA. Now, out of the 33 items of special provisions all it states is: "#13. The holder of this Certificate of Authorization is responisible for the overall safe exectution of the jump exhibition. The final determination of site acceptability, landing area, wind conditions, and location of where to exit the jump aircraft (in accordance with the aforementioned special provsions) will be made by the team leader." If you find yourself second guessing your decision to jump try saying to your team mates - "I won't if you won't". It can make a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #21 October 23, 2008 QuoteI hate to write this without checking but in the FAA Waiver for jumps over congested areas, wind limits have been listed for Demos I have done in the past. I am going to grab a few and look to see the wording. I thought wind limits might have been in the waiver, or indirectly in the waiver as well. I looked through a couple, and looked at the notes I added. Nothing regarding wind limits, or reference to anything indicating a wind limit. There's generally one person assigned to administer these waivers at each FSDO (or at least at the ICT FSDO they all go to the same guy). In response to this demo, the ICT FSDO may very well require a wind limit be noted from this point forward. I think that the S&TA who signs off on the waiver should also be responsible for setting a reasonably safe wind limit. If the demo is into a mile square open hay field, with no trees, buildings, etc. Maybe 25 is a good number. I don't think anyone here would argue for 25 to be the max number for a stadium. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #22 October 23, 2008 wow way to run an cry to the FAA/USPA. Seems really low to me, especially considering the demo seemed to be successful, no one or nothing was hurt (except your ego). Remind me to stay away from your DZ lol don't want to get arrested by the USPA police. Don't be a hater skycop Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #23 October 23, 2008 Quote wow way to run an cry to the FAA/USPA. Seems pretty low to me. Remind me to stay away from your DZ lol. Don't be a hater skycop I may not have written that response very well. The FAA was not given any names or locations, but general questions. To be honest, I did not personally go to anyone, someone else did. That said, I don't care if you flame me about it. Have at it! Here's your reminder: Stay away from my DZ. And have a nice day! MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #24 October 23, 2008 Quote Here's your reminder: Stay away from my DZ. And have a nice day! Likewise my friend! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linebckr83 3 #25 October 23, 2008 Quote wow way to run an cry to the FAA/USPA. Seems really low to me, especially considering the demo seemed to be successful, no one or nothing was hurt (expect your ego). Remind me to stay away from your DZ lol don't want to get arrested by the USPA police. Don't be a hater skycop So it's all ok since no one or nothing was hurt this time? I don't think that's the point here. Hell, I bet some people could pull of a Mr. Bill with only one rig on and survive it. Does that mean everyone will every time? absolutely not. The point here is to set limits before someone does get killed."Are you coming to the party? Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!" Flying Hellfish #828 Dudist #52 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
