Megatron 0 #1 December 4, 2008 I'm looking to downsize from a 190 to a 170 main. Planning to rent a 170 rig this weekend and give it a go. Will this feel like a big change? Im currently ~205lb, the 190 loads at about 1.1 for me while the 170 would be roughly 1.3. As a student I started on a 280, then a 240, and finally the 190 which Ive been jumping for some time now. Never has downsizing come with much of a learning curve for me. As a matter of fact the improved handling and increase flare has resulted in more precise flying of the canopy and consistent stand-up landings on the 190. Please note that while the 190 is an F111 canopy, the 170 will most likely be a ZP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CazmoDee 3 #2 December 4, 2008 I think you'll see a difference.... Are you 205 with or without gear?I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys! Muff 4313 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
txhoss 0 #3 December 4, 2008 I just sent back my Saber 2 170 demo that I got from PD. I have been flying the 190 for about 250 jumps with an exit weight of around 210 and don't have any problems with it at all. My first jump on the 170 was a no wind landing. I was moving so much faster that I am used to that I braced for a PLF and preformed a pretty impressive ass over tea-kettle maneuver if i do say so myself. It was snappier in the air and faster on the landing. It was fast enough to make me think about my flaring technique. If you have your own rig I would recommend calling the manufacturer of your choice and getting a demo. It was very helpful. Have Rig will travel ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #4 December 4, 2008 The recommendations I've seen (I think it was Brian Germain) strongly recommend changing only one of three variables at one time: Material Size Planform You're looking at changing at least two, material and size. I don't know if the planform of the 170 is the same as your currrent 190, but I suspect it probably isn't. You may be better served by trying out a ZP 190 for several jumps to see what the difference in material will do. Reading/accomplishing billvon's downsizing checklist is strongly recommended, as well.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 December 4, 2008 Do not worry! ZP 170 will fly lot better. Just take your time and try it in nice calm winds first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevesimms 0 #6 December 4, 2008 I was in the same situation as you. I downsized from a PD190 to a ZP170.. Also F111 to ZP... One sentence... Best thing I ever did! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #7 December 4, 2008 QuoteThe recommendations I've seen (I think it was Brian Germain) strongly recommend changing only one of three variables at one time: Material Size Planform You're looking at changing at least two, material and size. I don't know if the planform of the 170 is the same as your currrent 190, but I suspect it probably isn't. You may be better served by trying out a ZP 190 for several jumps to see what the difference in material will do. Reading/accomplishing billvon's downsizing checklist is strongly recommended, as well. Nice work! Is this coming from your homework or experience? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 December 4, 2008 Dude, the 190 is a Silhouette, which is a hybrid with a ZP top skin, no an F111 canopy. The 170 is a Sabre2. You'll notice a difference, but its not going to be a hugely drastic earth shattering experience. Take some extra time to plan out your pattern and fly safe. You know what to do, enjoy yourself after you've opened, did a couple of practice flares and a flat turn or two.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #9 December 4, 2008 Quote Quote The recommendations I've seen (I think it was Brian Germain) strongly recommend changing only one of three variables at one time: Material Size Planform You're looking at changing at least two, material and size. I don't know if the planform of the 170 is the same as your currrent 190, but I suspect it probably isn't. You may be better served by trying out a ZP 190 for several jumps to see what the difference in material will do. Reading/accomplishing billvon's downsizing checklist is strongly recommended, as well. Nice work! Is this coming from your homework or experience? Homework - note the first sentence. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #10 December 4, 2008 Quote Homework - note the first sentence. Wink Is that more practical than quantum physics? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #11 December 4, 2008 Quote Quote Homework - note the first sentence. Wink Is that more practical than quantum physics? I think that taking the advice of a canopy designer and a multi-discipline instructor and S&TA with a combined experience of some 35 years in sport and combined total of 15k+ jumps as prudent, yes. Perhaps you can show us what parachutes you have designed, or canopy piloting books you have written. Maybe a mention of your published safety articles? Next question?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,341 #12 December 4, 2008 QuoteDude, the 190 is a Silhouette, which is a hybrid with a ZP top skin, no an F111 canopy. The 170 is a Sabre2. You'll notice a difference, but its not going to be a hugely drastic earth shattering experience. Take some extra time to plan out your pattern and fly safe. You know what to do, enjoy yourself after you've opened, did a couple of practice flares and a flat turn or two. I fly a Triathalon 190. I've borrowed a 170 Sabre2 a few times. The difference isn't huge but it is there. As long as you pick a good day (medium,steady winds; low traffic in the pattern:big open landing area), practice flare up high, play with it a bit to get a feel for it, and don't do anything radical, I would think you'll be ok. Standard disclaimer: not an instructor, ask your instructor ect, ect."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #13 December 4, 2008 I've seen many times instructors giving briefings about a new canopy when someone is about to make a downsize. Although they are details that you probably know having them at the forefront of your mind may be worthwhile. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #14 December 4, 2008 Well, if you're going to quote Brian Germain, why not also cite his wingloading recommendations, too? http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf To Megatron - before you decide to downsize you may want to take a look at this chart. (Of course, if you have Mad Skillz of any sort this chart doesn't apply to you ). "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #15 December 4, 2008 It won't feel like a huge change. That said, please review this and consider the wisdom of jumping a 1.3 wingload at 66 jumps. (Edit: great minds think alike I guess.)Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #16 December 4, 2008 QuoteI think that taking the advice of a canopy designer and a multi-discipline instructor and S&TA with a combined experience of some 35 years in sport and combined total of 15k+ jumps as prudent, yes. Perhaps you can show us what parachutes you have designed, or canopy piloting books you have written. Maybe a mention of your published safety articles? Next question? I just jumped quite a lot of different canopies between size 300+ and 105, 7,9 cell, airfoil, round, triangular, ZP, hybrid, F111, square, semi and full-ellictical from WL 0.7 - 2.2....and I don't have to quote anyone. I usually not f*cking with others mind and fears..... Back to the topic. The short practical answer is :"Yes, Go ahead and enjoy" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #17 December 4, 2008 QuoteI just jumped quite a lot of different canopies between size 300+ and 105, 7,9 cell, airfoil, round, triangular, ZP, hybrid, F111, square, semi and full-ellictical from WL 0.7 - 2.2.... I see - so you DON'T have anywhere near the experience of the people whose advice I passed on, then. QuoteI usually not f*cking with others mind and fears..... No, just trying to slam others with less experience than you when their advice doesn't match yours.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #18 December 4, 2008 >Will this feel like a big change? Yes. Things really "start to happen" above loadings of 1 psf. At a loading of 1.3, an uneven flare will dump you to one side or the other. If this happens do NOT "reach out to break your fall." You will turn the canopy even harder and land on your wrist, which is one of the weaker joints. Also, at those loadings, you will not be able to just "flare all the way" as you come in to land. You'll have to flare gradually, timing the flare so that you get to zero downward speed at zero feet just as the canopy is about to stall. Above 1 psf you can no longer just pull both toggles down at X feet and hope for the best. >Never has downsizing come with much of a learning curve for me. This statement worries me a bit. If you jump a new canopy and don't think you have much to learn on it, it's likely that you're not doing anything but turning it gently and landing it straight into the wind. While that is a good idea when you first get a new canopy, by the time you are ready to try _another_ new canopy you should be able to fly the snot out of the larger canopy, including things like turning during the flare, flat turning on final, landing downwind etc. If you've already done all those things, no worries. For most people there's a bit of a learning curve though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #19 December 4, 2008 QuoteNo, just trying to slam others with less experience than you when their advice doesn't match yours. Why do you think I don't know those sources? Why do you think I have not any canopy courses? I'm sorry, I have first hand experience and I'm not a librarian... Although you have not pointed out that he is overloading that F111 190..... So jumping that ZP 170 is lot better than a 190 over WL 1.0... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #20 December 4, 2008 >So jumping that ZP 170 is lot better than a 190 over WL 1.0... No, it's not. To be specific, jumping a (relatively new) PD190 is safer than jumping a Silhouette 170. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Megatron 0 #21 December 5, 2008 Let me rephrase that a bit..not that there was no learning curve at all, my canopy flying skills have definitely improved as I downsized. What I meant to say what that I never had any trouble landing safely after a downsize..if anything my ability to control the canopy to a smooth landing has improved with higher wing loadings. That trend definitly has a limit to it however, especially at my skill level. Im just hoping its not at the 170 mark. I'm about 225 with gear btw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 December 5, 2008 Quote Standard disclaimer: not an instructor, ask your instructor ect, ect. I am one of the instructors at his DZ.He should be fine and has been progressing well. He wouldn't be allowed to jump the canopy if the S&TA didn't think that it was right.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #23 December 5, 2008 Not advice, but an anecdote from my (limited) experience: I'm about 200 lbs without gear right now, so my exit weight is about 225. During my A license progression my instructors downsized me from a Navigator 280, to a Nav260, 240, 220, and then 200. Then they downsized me to a Spectre 190. Through the progression, I didn't notice much of a difference from 280 to 240. The 220 seemed noticeably faster than the 240+, and the 200 was noticeably faster than the 220. The 200 also seemed to land better/easier than the 220, which seemed better/easier to land than the 240+. The Spectre 190 didn't seem much different from the Nav 200. I don't really know why. Maybe it was a fluke, or maybe I just didn't know how to notice. They (my instructors and S&TA) suggested the first rig I buy have a 190 main, and that I'd probably stick with it for quite a while. Anyways, at this point I changed dropzones (major geographic shift), and started jumping a Silhouette 190. It was fun, not really any different from what I was used to jumping. Easy to fly, easy to land. I jumped a Sil210 a couple of times, and it seemed be about the same. I jumped a Fusion 190 and a Sabre 170, and they seemed pretty similar, too. I ended up buying a Sabre2 190, and it's *much* more snappy/reactive than the Silhouette 190. There's about 800 times more power in the flare, It planes out more/longer at the start of the flare, and you have to more gently bleed off airspeed prior to landing in the second stage of the flare. I have no idea what jumping a Sabre2 170 would be like, but I know just going from Silhouette to Sabre2 at the same size drastically changed the flight characteristics I was experiencing. Just saying, if you're going from a Silhouette 190 to a Sabre2 170, you'll probably notice a difference. If your instructors and S&TA are suggesting it, trust them over the internet, since they have seen you fly and land, and we have not. Me personally, I'm glad I didn't drop in size, too, since just the planeform change was noticeable.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #24 December 5, 2008 Jumping a ZP 170 will give you more support than a F111 190 but will be way faster. For the first jumps on a ZP 170 choose your conditions: 1) check with an instructor and get a briefing for approach and flare 2) jump it with a medium to good wind to slow down your ground speed when approaching against the wind. 3) do your approach with plenty of room before you and start your flare at about 15-20 feet but depress your toggles progressively and adjust according what you see at 45 degrees before you where you will land. If ground is coming faster than expected depress your toogles faster. You should be full brakes just before touching the ground (6-12") not before. At all time be very symetrical with toggles when you do your approach. Easy to say but a lot of people have an arm stronger than the other and they start turning at landing. A trick I give is to repeat to yourself at loud voice several times to be symetrical when you do your approach. Don't worry, nobody will hear you. Don't give up flying your canopy even after to touch the ground. Note: A faster canopy will give you a more powerful flare. But please plan your descent and approach.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Megatron 0 #25 December 5, 2008 Hey whats up Dave! I figured someone from Aggieland would recognize me as Megatron haha ..yeah man, I knew that Silhouette wasnt ZP so I guessed F111 by default..didnt know about hybrid. Let me know next time you do another canopy course, Id love to take it! voilsb, you and I seem to have had the exact same experience downsizing. Thanks for the info. I figured a 1.3 wl would really start to get into the thick of active canopy flight. Should be fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
