Skydog0223 0 #1 June 10, 2008 I had a reserve ride 2 weeks ago caused by a malfunctioned pilot chute. The bridlecord was knotted around the hackysack about 6 inches from the base. I could not have tied a better knot. I had tracked of from an RW dive and pulled at 2500' initially I thought it was a hesitation but then I felt the bag bouncing around on my legs. After kicking it a couple of times to no avail I checked my alti (1700') and decided to cutaway and deploy the reserve. Everything was fine from the thereon. The guys at the DZ (Voltige 2001 in Quebec) recovered my main & freebag. The lines on the bag were 2/3 deployed. Unfortunately the opening shock caused me to drop my reserve handle. I've jumped a hackysack since 1991, probably around 1900 jumps with no problems until now. The rigger at my local DZ fitted a freefly pad which I think is way better in any case. I've done 5 jumps withe new handle and would recommend this fix to anybody using a hackysack. This was my 2nd malfunction in 2200 jumps. The reserve was a PD126 which has now saved my life twice. Many thanks to my rigger friend who packed it for me, I think I was his 23rd saveI didn't post this under incidents as I wasn't injured, only my wallet!!"Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 June 10, 2008 This same mal has been reported a few times on wingsuit jumps. Some of those jumpers have taken to using a floating handle to keep it from happening again. What length bridle do you have?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #3 June 10, 2008 "Floating handle" Can you explain, please? I can't picture it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #4 June 10, 2008 The bridle is 92" long, I just checked it"Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #5 June 10, 2008 I've seen these knots with hackeys, the old plastic tubing, the 'remote' handle on the old rapid transit system. Some of the new pads may be less prone but don't think they're immune. Even with out a handle I think it could knot up, but not as often. I'm waiting for the floating handle description. If this is the handle in the PC not specifically sewn in one location I wonder about it getting loss in a partial pull and can still imagine it knoting up. One thing that I believe has contributed over the years is some hackeys are sewn much closer and tighter to the PC than others. Used to be the tapes from the hackey were tied in a knot and then went through the top of the PC to the base to act as the apex lines. More lately I've seen them attached more closely. I think the floppy ones were more apt to knot. Of course 2 malfunctions in 1900 jumps is nothing to complain about. Of course, I haven't had one in about that long. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #6 June 10, 2008 Actually back in 1994 I had a similar incident with a partially inflated pilot chute when the bridle had knotted itself around the pilot chute, luckily the drag was sufficient to deploy the main in that incident. It felt just like a hesitation."Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #7 June 10, 2008 It all depends if the malfunction resulted in a reserve ride. I've known people ride partial mals down when I would've chopped it! "Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #8 June 10, 2008 Had bridle knot up twice on me just below the pilot chute. No issues with depolyment either time however. But my buddy had knot tie directly around pilot chute which resulted in no inflation/insufficient PC drag to pull pin...so he went to reserve. Of course when reserve came out the whole rig loosened up and main pin came out resulting in 2 canopies out...----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #9 June 10, 2008 QuoteThis same mal has been reported a few times on wingsuit jumps. Some of those jumpers have taken to using a floating handle to keep it from happening again. For skydiving? Really? Everyone I know it's happened to (except me) has just switched to using a FF pad handle stitched along the base.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #10 June 10, 2008 As I was pulling the cutaway I knew the bag was somewhere behind and above me, I just prayed that the reserve would open before the main had any sort of chance of coming out of the bag, that's your biggest fear 2 canopies out and a resulting entanglement"Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #11 June 10, 2008 Just curious; A recently graduated student at my home DZ had a malfunction somewhat similar to that. I can't imagine how that could possibly happen to me given the packing method (Brians way on youtube linked) and using a pud. I'd suspect this to be a PC packing method issue, but given your jump numbers and experience this too seems contradictory. Here's the shot of the crap PC the guy cut away; [inline 11052008101rs.jpg]The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dannydan 0 #12 June 10, 2008 I have a "floPPy" hacky~sacky too! .... I've wondered about it also, but with about 80 pulls on it, no adverse side effects as of YET!! I will take a closer peeka boo at it! Or perhaps get the Mrs. to chk it out!!! THX for the heads uP!! and YES what about this "floating handle" discription dogg? Is it the same as the freefly pillow? glad you and others are safe and sound that have had this happen!!! nice sig~line dude Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #13 June 10, 2008 This is not a packing issue. This issue is caused by a heavy handle or holding onto the handle for an extended period of time while deploying causing the bridle to rise above the handle and form a loop that the handle then passes through ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #14 June 10, 2008 Terry, you are correct that the handle is inside the PC and floats in there. The idea came from BASE rigs. The idea is that a light object is put inside the PC and then you pack it and stick some of the PC with the object out of the BOC. You end up grabbing the ZP material and the object and pulling it out and then the handle moves around on the inside and its less likely to weigh the PC down and form a knot. Here is a link to a post in the wingsuit forum showing how one person's rig is set up with it. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1557234#1557234Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #15 June 10, 2008 Hi Sean: There is a way to fold and pack your pilot chute described by a link from Brian Germain on this forum to avoid that kind of situation. Your problem illustrates that everything is a question of statistics. If you don't have the proper technique and if it works for a 1000 jumps or even more like answered several times by people who prefer keeping the way they are used to, soon or later (Murphy's Law) the problem will occur. On the DVD from Vector about packing a main parachute you can also see the same technique (Brian's one) used and the guy tells you this is specifically to avoid a bridle/hackey entanglement.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #16 June 10, 2008 Ok - so the handle attachment is reversed so that the handle is INSIDE the pc - cool idea. How does this keep the bridle from slip-knotting around the PC, however?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #17 June 10, 2008 How is this a packing issue?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #18 June 10, 2008 QuoteOk - so the handle attachment is reversed so that the handle is INSIDE the pc - cool idea. How does this keep the bridle from slip-knotting around the PC, however? Not saying what is pictured is wrong but you are right in asking how that prevents a slip knot when you still have a weighted object there. I don't consider that a correct internal or floating handle. The handle in question is actually about the diameter of a pencil and about 3-5 inches long and is located on the inside of the PC;it weighs next to nothing and can be made from a piece of rope or other flexible material. The "handle" is to keep the PC from slipping all the way into the BOC and to provide something for the user to grab onto. If you picture a normal PC tucked into the BOC with just the hacky attachment point of the PC hanging out (with no hacky obviously), thats what a floating handle PC looks like. I'm on the road at the moment so I cannot post a picture of an old PC that I have with a floating handle in it for reference. I am sure there are some pics on the BASE mfgrs sites that show this type of handle option."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #19 June 10, 2008 Hey, Scott - The pics in the thread linked above showed a tube handle - surely that's not enough weight, is it? It seems to me that the "slipknot" is more likely to occur due to someone hanging onto the pc, where the bridle is floating, regardless of the handle type/attachment - do you disagree?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #20 June 10, 2008 QuoteIt seems to me that the "slipknot" is more likely to occur due to someone hanging onto the pc, where the bridle is floating, regardless of the handle type/attachment - do you disagree? I agree. However, the handle does appear to matter ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #21 June 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteIt seems to me that the "slipknot" is more likely to occur due to someone hanging onto the pc, where the bridle is floating, regardless of the handle type/attachment - do you disagree? I agree. However, the handle does appear to matter ... Provided the handle acts as a snag point, yes.... howver, I have also seen several examples of bridles slipknotted around the middle of pc's...so it appears to be a 'luck of the draw' issue, at least to me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #22 June 10, 2008 I've been packing my pilot chute the same way for the last 1600 jumps without any problems. The method I was using was shown to me by a an instructor to prevent horseshoes. Change is good however, I asked my rigger how he packs his and I've changed to what he said is the PD suggested method which is slightly different to the way I was packing mine."Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #23 June 10, 2008 Thanx Actually I have to be honest about the signature line, I believe it was thought up by a jump pilot/jumper called Chris Benyon who actually was the pilot on my first ever jump. There was a label on the C185 dashboard with it written on, I'll never forget it! "Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydog0223 0 #24 June 10, 2008 I never hold onto the handle when I deploy the pilot chute, but you are right about the weight of the Hacky, also being spherical makes it aerodynamic and will have less wind resistance than a pad which could weight the pilot down until it inflates."Know your own limits" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #25 June 10, 2008 QuoteI have also seen several examples of bridles slipknotted around the middle of pc's...so it appears to be a 'luck of the draw' issue, at least to me. Like this? (Sorry about the focus on the first photo.) Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
