Problem with Pilot canopies??????

[mjosparky 3]

I am aware of 2 incidents at one dropzone where the jumpers suffered fractured femurs during openings while jumping a Pilot canopy. I know that twice does not make a trend but would like to find out if anyone is aware of similar injuries to jumpers jumping Pilots.

This is not meant as slam to Aerodyne or Pilots, just an attempt to gather information that may head off a potential problem.

Thanks,

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[voodew1 0]

As a dealer for Aerodyne I personally have not heard of or had any type of hard opening.

I would have to say maybe packed slider down???

There was similar incidents I recall with the Sabre 2 --- Once again an opening that hard would have to be packing issues ---- or maybe they need to get calcium supplements

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[skydemon2 0]

Wow fractured femur? Ive had some very hard openings but a femur? Wow (yes again) That being said I do know someone who broke their arm with a saber1, but everyone I know who jumps pilots love them and I havent heard of any hard openings.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[darkwing 4]

I'm not aware of a specific problem with Pilots (I have a couple of hundred jumps on mine). I was aware that in general it is possible to have an opening hard enough to break a femur/pelvis on a ram air canopy, and it has happened a few times.

My first question is how were they packed, and were they packed by the same person?

Pilots are fairly popular canopies, and you have to be careful when drawing conclusions about popular canopies. Something that happens to any canopy will appear to happen more to popular canopies, simply because there are more of them.

My personal hardest openings were on a Spectre, a canopy widely regarded for its mellow openings, and a Starlite, a round canopy known for its hard openings.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[AggieDave 6]

I'm curious to know the condition of the linesets, jumps on the canopy, who packed the canopy, if they normally pack the canopy, etc.

Any canopy can open hard at any time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[bigway 4]

I have sold 20+ pilots this year and keep in constant touch with my customers. I have not heard of this at all.

Last year I had one complaint about a bit of a turn on the pilot but that was fixed very fast.

Out of curiosity, were the 2 pilots you mention manufacturered around the same time or is their a big time scale difference? I know this is not an answer but it would be interesting to know.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[beatcreation 0]

Well with my background in crash testing and dynamics I would say that any broken bones due solely to a hard opening would indicate that the opening was truly of special case cause and not of the native population of pilot deployments. I have limited jump numbers but most of my jumps have been with a pilot and the openings and landings have been nothing less than awesome. The events that you speak of may have very well occurred but statistically speaking based on the rave reviews of the pilot I would say that these situations were probably flukes.

[bigway 4]

You know, I will rave about the Safire 2 until the cows come home. I love the canopy, i love everything about it. However I jumped a demo one 3 times and each three times i had the hardest opennings i had ever imagined. People talk about hard opennings but i never knew they could be that hard. They were so hard i thought the packer was playing a joke on me by leaving the slider up.

My other experience with hundreds of jumps on numerous safire 2's have been the best opennings ever.

I would not like to say that this incident has been caused by the pilot but maybe to check they should have these pilots sent back and inspected? No matter what products you buy in life every brand always has a lemon or two in its time. MY last car was the biggest lemon ever. It happens. I know for a fact that it is not a widespread problem, My delaings with Aerodyne back this up but it would not hurt to be sure and have aerodyne check the canopies.

I dont think anyone can say it is the canopies fault until the manufacturer has a look over it and that would be the safe thing to do. I am also certain that if it is a chance it could be the canopies fault that Aerodyne would want to inspect it before eit happens to someone else if it is the fault of the canopy.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[billvon 2,400]

I have not heard of any openings on Pilots hard enough to injure people. However, I have noted that larger Pilot sizes have great openings, and the smaller ones tend to be harder. I have a Pilot 150 I use for wingsuiting and demos and I like it a lot; opens both softly and reliably. I have a Pilot 117 that tends to slam me on occasion, and always opens faster than the 150.

[mjosparky 3]

Thank you all for your input. Including PM’s. You have all brought up good points. I assure you that judgment will be reserved on the issue until I have much more date. Although I no longer actively jump I was involved in testing and development for a little over 25 years.

My only intention is to identify a problem if one exists. As darkwing pointed out, 2 is a very small sampling out the numbers out there of a very popular canopy.

Thanks again for not turning this into a pissing contest.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[erdnarob 1]

I was at Reno Nevada last year at the PIA symposium. I attended Bill Booth's seminar talking about his new stuff: Skyhook, 1000 Lbs line with bungee instead of a steel cable for the reserve ripcord and the rare earth magnets for the risers cover tabs. Bill explained that it seems a very hard opening can occur by a classical risers cover tuck tab which gives up a fraction of a second after the other one. That way, you get a line stretch one side a fraction of a second before the other one and get possibly a very hard opening as a ressult. He mentioned that a broken femur was caused by one hard opening of that kind and another one resulted in an aorta artery rupture causing death. That's why Bill Booth came up with rare earth magnet inserts in the riser cover tab which makes the closing or release of the flap a lot easier. I have them on my Vector III and I can tell you that packers are very happy since it's easier to close. Those magnets equiped riser covers even get close after they have released the the risers at the opening. You all have to keep in mind that the snatch force (force experienced when at the line stretch, the skydiver in free fall starts to accelerate the pilot chute and bag almost stopped by the pilot chute) can reach nearly 2000 lbs. Hard openings have been found with many canopies. Not only a lose slider can be the cause of a hard opening (slider not against its stoppers) but also, the wrong kind of rubber bands on the deployment bag, a wrong the pilot chute, a bad position at opening and seemingly a riser cover tuck tab releasing in late.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[MagicGuy 0]

I have about 300 jumps on a Pilot 150 and I've never had a hard opening. The thing opens ridiculously soft each and every time. In my opinion, it's the best quality of the canopy.

[erdnarob 1]

I would add, this is your best quality too since the care for packing and the right stuff (pilot chute, rubber bands, position in free fall..) help a lot.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[tbrown 26]

I've seen the video of Bill Booth talking about tuck tabs causing extremely hard openings - he's also no great fan of the thin spectra and HMA lines that are popular these days. I think anything Bill Booth has to offer on any subject is well worth considering.

Personally, I had one horrendous slammer of an opening with a 210 Pilot last summer. Didn't break any bones, but had some huge bruises and the canopy was destroyed (I had to cutaway). I do my own packing and honestly can't think of anything I did differently. Up until that jump, my 210 Pilot had always opened "Spectre soft", and so does the new 188 Pilot I replaced it with.

I do know one person who broke the ball joint off his femur in a slammer opening, but I hear conflicting reports as to whether he was jumping a Pilot or a Sabre2 when it happened.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[swilson 0]

Two summers ago a friend of mine was hammered by a 210 pilot. From the ground, the opening sounded like a shotgun going off, and she suffered two compression fractures in her lower back.

Packing *may* have been a contributing factor, but I know for a fact that the slider was at the top when it was packed. This particular canopy was not known for hard openings.

[tbrown 26]

Quote

I attended Bill Booth's seminar talking about his new stuff.

Bill explained that it seems a very hard opening can occur by a classical riser cover tuck tab which gives up a fraction of a second after the other one. That way, you get a line stretch one side a fraction of a second before the other one and get possibly a very hard opening as a ressult. He mentioned that a broken femur was caused by one hard opening of that kind and another one resulted in an aorta artery rupture causing death. That's why Bill Booth came up with rare earth magnet inserts in the riser cover tab which makes the closing or release of the flap a lot easier.

There was an online edition of the video of Booth giving that talk, which is where I saw it. According to Booth, his research came about after being asked by PD to look into the problem. To me, the fact that PD was concerned about the problem would suggest that this problem is more widespread than any particular brand or model canopy (as I've also witnessed a "cannon shot" slammer with a Safire2, the jumper was fortunately not injured, though he said it really hurt).

What sounds convincing about this theory is that Booth says he's seen evidence of damaged or destroyed tuck tabs after some of these incidents. It also makes sense because this seems to be such a rare occurence (thankfully) that it has taken years for a pattern to emerge that anyone has noticed.

Perhaps tuck tabs aren't as safe as we'd thought. They were created to make our rigs safe for the high speeds of freefly without the wear & tear of velcro, but have unkowingly created a new problem. Come to think of it, Booth also mentions that this problem was unheard of in the days of velcro riser covers. It wouldn't be the first time that a solution to one problem has created a new problem of it's own. Quite possibly magnets are the way to go. In a few more years we may all be jumping rigs with magnetic covers, along with Skyhooks, 3 Rings, and hand deployed pilot chutes, all thanks to Mr. Bill.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[MagicGuy 0]

Quote

I would add, this is your best quality too since the care for packing and the right stuff (pilot chute, rubber bands, position in free fall..) help a lot.

Well, I'd be quite happy to accept that quality about myself! Being a packer probably helps, too.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Perhaps tuck tabs aren't as safe as we'd thought. They were created to make our rigs safe for the high speeds of freefly without the wear & tear of velcro, but have unkowingly created a new problem.

In evaluating new Military freefall systems, we initially received rigs from mfgrs with tuck tabs on them. After putting a significant number of jumps on all the systems and experiencing varying opening problems related to the tuck tabs, it was decided to have the tuck tabs removed and velcro installed. After having received updated systems without tuck tabs, the incident of opening problems has dropped to zero. While there is a very distinct difference between a military rig and a sport rig, the issue of tuck tabs possibly causing problems was identified as real.

The incidence of experiencing problems with tuck tabs seems to be higher when the system is new and the tuck tabs are new and very stiff. The other issue is that based on the design of the tuck tab system, it is possible for the riser(s) to be improperly packed under one portion of the tuck tab causing it not to release or to slip under after closing the tuck tab. In at least one incident that I witnessed both tuck tabs failed to release and the jumper landed the canopy with both tuck tabs still fully closed. The jumper did not notice that the tuck tabs had not released but had noted that something did not feel right about the system.

So in short, I personally believe that tuck tabs can, in some incidents, be the source of opening problems, most of which are noted or experienced on smaller ,highly loaded canopies in the sports parachuting world but that is not to say that it cannot happen on larger, lighter loaded canopies as well. Some mfgrs tuck tabs designs are better than others and some even go so far as to sew a warning label on the tuck tab stating how it should be routed to avoid an issue. To me, that says it all. YMMV

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Stuntbabex 0]

I agree with you Darkwing. I know I dont have a whole lot of jumps but I did notice an incredible difference when I switched from a Spectre to a Pilot. On the spectre I always got harder openings which is why I love my current Pilot so much. My openings on the pilot is about 1250ft so theyre super soft. And yes I packed them both the same.

[tbrown 26]

Perhaps a worthwhile area to investigate after slammer incidents is to determine what kind of riser covers were used. Tuck tabs, magnets, velcro, other, or none ? Also an inspection for damage to riser covers would be worthwhile (though after a real slam banger, the entire system should be inspected, as my rigger did after mine). For the record, I had tuck tabs and still do.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[mjosparky 3]

I have spent many hours looking into the 2 incidents I mentioned in my OP. I have talked to the jumpers involved other riggers and different manufactures. The one thing I was unable to do was inspect the gear personally.

There are 4 things that stand out as possible causes for such injuries during opening. One would be a packing error, i.e. slider not controlled during packing or not un-stowed. Two could be a poorly fitting harness allowing the load to be taken mid shaft of the femur. Three would be a poorly sequenced deployment due to improperly functioning riser tabs. Four would be line trim.

It is my feeling that these injuries were caused by one or a combination of the above conditions. I received some negative PM’s from people defending Aerodyne who I felt jumped the gun on what I intended to be a quest for information only. This was not, as I posted, a slam against anyone. For what its worth I hope this helps in some way.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bigway 4]

Quote

I received some negative PM’s from people defending Aerodyne who I felt jumped the gun on what I intended to be a quest for information only. This was not, as I posted, a slam against anyone. For what its worth I hope this helps in some way.

That is a shame. I thought your original post was worded very well and I am one of the biggest Aerodyne canopy supporters i know.

To whoever sent you those PM's, maybe they do not realise that you are one of the long standing and one of the most respected posters this forum has had.

Right when you asked the question it was obvious that the only reason for you to post again after retiring from the sport was to help the community and in no way would i have thought you were trying to disscredit a manufacturer of the sport.

Thanks for your concern Sparky. Keep it up.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[BoilingMidnight 0]

I agree with 'bigway.' How could you have been any more clear than to write "This is not meant as slam to Aerodyne or Pilots" in bold letters?

Those who chose to slam you in secret are at best remedial readers and at worst shills with a hidden agenda.

BTW, I have a Pilot and love it.

"Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin."

[JohnDeere 0]

It is sad how ignorant some people are

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[MegaGoliath11 0]

I had a slammer yesterday in Hawaii with a Pilot 168 in an Icon Rig. I have had one hard opening before once before by a Pilot 188.

Keep reading I am not knocking Aerodyne! I love the Pilots!

I was doing a two freefly jump, uneventful freefall, went to belly waved and pulled. The canopy opening was violent and instantaneous. I was wearing a top mounted camera and my head went all the way back and the wind was knocked out of me. After a few seconds of moaning for the camera and checking to see if I could feel my balls I stowed the slider and went to land with no incident. After landing I had to kneel for a few minutes since I had trouble breathing and one of the DZ big dogs had to come get me with the cart. Thanks Ash.

anyway I will post the video on youtube and link it for you.

Lastly, I don't think the slamming had anything to do with the pack jobs. I had an experienced packer that day and watched almost all of the pack job to get pointers on doing it neater for myself. also other than those two openings I have had about 275 super soft openings on pilots. So I don't think its the canopy either.

I do remember that when I pulled I lazily threw the PC out, almost like I was just slipping it out of the BOC and not throwing it. I feel that there is some correlation with the force the inflated PC puts on the top of the bag that may have a hand in the tuck tabs opening after each other.