I finally decided to downsize

[JeepDiver 0]

A few of you may know or not I've been jumping a Sabre2 210 for well over 400 jumps, I recently went to a Sabre2 170 as a demo and it felt very much the same as the 210.

I was thinking of trying a Sabre2 150 but skipped over that.

I gave it some thought for a couple weeks and then decided to jump a brand new Crossfire 2 129.

I went through all of billvons checklist for the Sabre2 210 and it was the same for the Sabre2 170.

After putting a handful of jumps on the Crossfire 2 129 that is what I will be buying. Now I have to get a new container & reserve.

[NWFlyer 2]

Just curious - after staying at what must have been a fairly conservative wingloading (about 1:1?) for 400+ jumps, why did you decide to make such a dramatic downsize/change in canopy type all at once? How many jumps did you put on the intermediate sizes?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[in2jumping 0]

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A few of you may know or not I've been jumping a Sabre2 210 for well over 400 jumps, I recently went to a Sabre2 170 as a demo and it felt very much the same as the 210.

I was thinking of trying a Sabre2 150 but skipped over that.

I gave it some thought for a couple weeks and then decided to jump a brand new Crossfire 2 129.

I went through all of billvons checklist for the Sabre2 210 and it was the same for the Sabre2 170.

After putting a handful of jumps on the Crossfire 2 129 that is what I will be buying. Now I have to get a new container & reserve.

So are you looking for everyones reassurance that you made the right decision here?

[firstime 0]

I think I will bookmark this thread

[JohnDeere 0]

I find it hard to believe that you got all of the performance out of a demo sabre 2 170. You may have tried it but you did not get the full potential out of it. That is a big drop in size. 89 Square feet

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[labrys 0]

You should seriously consider a demo or two from this relatively unknown canopy company before you settle on the Crossfire

http://www.handkerchief.us/

Owned by Remi #?

[davelepka 4]

That was dumb. Be tough, you're going to need it.

[Martini 0]

I looked up the definition of "troll", a copy of your post is what I found.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[labrys 0]

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That was dumb. Be tough, you're going to need it.

K, so.... maybe I'm naive. The whole thing seemed an entirely tongue-in-cheek mockery of the "3 jumps and already at 8.99 wingloading" threads that have been floating around here.

Owned by Remi #?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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A few of you may know or not I've been jumping a Sabre2 210 for well over 400 jumps, I recently went to a Sabre2 170 as a demo and it felt very much the same as the 210.

I was thinking of trying a Sabre2 150 but skipped over that.

I gave it some thought for a couple weeks and then decided to jump a brand new Crossfire 2 129.

Landing straight in there isn't a big difference - your 129 is only 25% faster than the 210. With a speed inducing maneuver (that may be untintentional) you could easily end up with twice the speed, four times the energy, and a canopy so sensitive to control input you can't keep it flying in a straight line.

The perceived differences between canopy sizes and shapes are really non linear. I didn't have any problems going from a 205 to 155 square with a dozen jumps on 170s in between. The 135 @ 1.4-1.5 starting to get interesting and when I went from a 134 elliptical to a 120 elliptical loaded around 1.6 pounds/square foot with 600 jumps the thing didn't always go in a straight line.

At your wing loading you should be able to get a ground speed in excess of 50 MPH with a 90 degree turn which is a bit faster than a Cessna 172 lands. The Cessna has spring-loaded landing gear with wheels to accommodate rough handling near the ground. You don't.

Skipping a size and changing planform all at the same time is potentially a really bad idea.

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I went through all of billvons checklist for the Sabre2 210 and it was the same for the Sabre2 170.

You run the risk of being unpleasantly surprised.

[pilotdave 0]

Why so big? If you're gonna troll (which I hope you are!), go to the XTREME and say you went with a katana 107 or something. Crossfire2 129 is sorta wimpy. Or are you going for the more believable but still extremely stupid angle?

Dave

[JeepDiver 0]

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A few of you may know or not I've been jumping a Sabre2 210 for well over 400 jumps, I recently went to a Sabre2 170 as a demo and it felt very much the same as the 210.

I was thinking of trying a Sabre2 150 but skipped over that.

I gave it some thought for a couple weeks and then decided to jump a brand new Crossfire 2 129.

Landing straight in there isn't a big difference - your 129 is only 25% faster than the 210. With a speed inducing maneuver (that may be untintentional) you could easily end up with twice the speed, four times the energy, and a canopy so sensitive to control input you can't keep it flying in a straight line.

The perceived differences between canopy sizes and shapes are really non linear. I didn't have any problems going from a 205 to 155 square with a dozen jumps on 170s in between. The 135 @ 1.4-1.5 starting to get interesting and when I went from a 134 elliptical to a 120 elliptical loaded around 1.6 pounds/square foot with 600 jumps the thing didn't always go in a straight line.

At your wing loading you should be able to get a ground speed in excess of 50 MPH with a 90 degree turn which is a bit faster than a Cessna 172 lands. The Cessna has spring-loaded landing gear with wheels to accommodate rough handling near the ground. You don't.

Skipping a size and changing planform all at the same time is potentially a really bad idea.

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I went through all of billvons checklist for the Sabre2 210 and it was the same for the Sabre2 170.

You run the risk of being unpleasantly surprised.

I am very much aware of all of what you said. What I was hoping for by posting is information I am not aware of, so, I don't want to overlook any advice simply because I may not be aware of it.

I've given it a great deal of thought. This thread isn't a troll. I was curious about what other may think sure, and good advise as to how best to handle this downsize is the information I am looking for.

You're somewhat right about the difference in speeds.

Using my alti-track I reviewed the data of my jumps under the Crossfire 2

Performing front riser 360's the canopy generates a speed of roughly 50 to 55 mph in the turn. A 180 is slightly less at 40 to 45 mph, a 90 front riser turn create a increase of speed up to 30 to 35 mph. Any turns over 180 I've done at or above 2k. I did a 90's front riser at 400+ feet.

The difference at straight level flight is no more than 5-10 mph depending on the wind conditions at final. I haven't jumped it in no wind conditions as of yet.

I've landed it slightly crosswind and adjustments of the toggle was very very nice for a gentle landing.

My thinking is I can land it as if it's a student canopy straight in. I respect it's control range so I have no plans to treat it as if it was my larger canopy. In fact in a way it is like starting canopy flight all over again, except I have the experience of 450 jumps now.

The openings are quite different than the Sabre2, and since I've wanted to explore the flight of this canopy I have been opening higher for those two reasons.

I still have a lot of jumping to do with this canopy and I've found that the work needed to induce speed is so much less I respect it greatly.

One thing I have noticed is doing a toggle turn causes a dive much more so than with the larger canopies so no low turns under this canopy. I have many more cautious jumps to make with this canopy. I have been flying it when close to the ground very conservatively. Toggle turns are my main concern, it does dive much more so than I have been used to. Toggle turns with this canopy need to be respected.

.... and I don't want to hurt myself yet still jump this canopy safely.

Do many posters who has been a member for 4 years, jumped 450 times at about 15 different dz with roughly seven hundred posts into these forums often troll? I am just looking for feedback without the bashing.

[pilotdave 0]

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Do many posters who has been a member for 4 years, jumped 450 times at about 15 different dz with roughly seven hundred posts into these forums often troll? I am just looking for feedback without the bashing.

Do posters that have been a member for 4 years, jumped 450 times at about 15 different dz with roughly seven hundred posts into these forums NOT know the reaction they'll get when they ask about their dumbass downsize after the fact? You had to know exactly what reaction you'd get, and I assume you wanted that reaction because otherwise you'd have kept your dumbass downsize to yourself.

So after reading dz.com for 4 years, why don't you tell us some good advice on downsizing? I'm sure you've read a lot of it...

EDIT: even the subject line sounds like a troll... "finally" decided to downsize after 400 jumps on that canopy? No, that's "already" decided to downsize...

Dave

[popsjumper 2]

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I've given it a great deal of thought. This thread isn't a troll...Do many posters who has been a member for 4 years, jumped 450 times at about 15 different dz with roughly seven hundred posts into these forums often troll? I am just looking for feedback without the bashing.

I'm not so sure.

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I was curious about what other may think sure,

With the numbers you posted, you either have a very short memory or you have not read any posts on this topic...ever.

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...and good advise as to how best to handle this downsize is the information I am looking for.

The advice you're getting is saying it's not a smart idea. Now what are you gonna do?

I have a nasty feeling that you're going to ignore the sane advice and keep fishing until you get an answer that you are looking for regardless of the sanity of it.

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My thinking is I can land it as if it's a student canopy straight in. I respect it's control range so I have no plans to treat it as if it was my larger canopy. In fact in a way it is like starting canopy flight all over again, except I have the experience of 450 jumps now.

One thing I have noticed is doing a toggle turn causes a dive much more so than with the larger canopies so no low turns under this canopy. I have many more cautious jumps to make with this canopy. I have been flying it when close to the ground very conservatively. Toggle turns are my main concern, it does dive much more so than I have been used to. Toggle turns with this canopy need to be respected.

.... and I don't want to hurt myself yet still jump this canopy safely.

Great. Straight in. Wonderful. Conservative. Wonderful.
That makes you an accomplished canopy pilot.

Tell me, what are you gonna do on your next jump when that bozo or young student crosses your path on final right in front of you? Tell me how much you've learned on the big one and how that's going to relate to the small one.

I'm trying very hard here to be nice...very hard.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

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One thing I have noticed is doing a toggle turn causes a dive much more so than with the larger canopies so no low turns under this canopy. I have many more cautious jumps to make with this canopy. I have been flying it when close to the ground very conservatively. Toggle turns are my main concern, it does dive much more so than I have been used to. Toggle turns with this canopy need to be respected.

.... and I don't want to hurt myself yet still jump this canopy safely.

Do many posters who has been a member for 4 years, jumped 450 times at about 15 different dz with roughly seven hundred posts into these forums often troll? I am just looking for feedback without the bashing.

Okay. I'm no canopy expert and you've got more jumps than me, and I'm staying on my 210 for probably a lot longer than 400 jumps.

But in the interest of providing feedback without bashing, do me a favor and do a search for Spencer Garrett (you can skip the Blue Skies thread and go straight to the Incident forum). Yes, he had fewer jumps than you, so it's not a perfect correlation, but because he was a friend of mine he's the first person I thought of when you said "I'm going to fly this canopy conservatively for a while."

You're that guy. Spencer was that guy. Smart, cerebral, conservative, buying a canopy that you have every intention of respecting the hell out of until you get a chance to put a few jumps on it, until you're really "ready" to fly it.

Do that search and see how well it turned out for him.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,400]

> I've been jumping a Sabre2 210 for well over 400 jumps . . .

>After putting a handful of jumps on the Crossfire 2 129 that is what
>I will be buying.

Eeeeeeexcellent. Some suggestions for your new hot rod:

1) When swooping the pond and picking up a drink next to it, start off with water, so as not to waste beer.

2) Remember that speed is your friend! Hop on those front risers at the first sign of trouble.

3) At most DZ's, the smaller canopy you have, the cooler you are - and cool guy has right of way. That will help clear the area you're landing in, in case the canopy seems to not go in the direction you want. Often these newfangled smaller canopies seem to have a mind of their own. It's no fault of the pilot; it's just the wing getting used to its new master.

4) If you have trouble landing the Crossfire2 129, keep in mind that the Crossfire2 109 has more flare. A Xaos-27 99 is another good option, and flies "big" so you will be fine.

5) When first landing your new main, ensure that you do it as close to the fence as possible. No sense in buying a tiny main if no one sees your skillz.

All in all, though, going down 40% in canopy size is no big deal, so ignore all those naysayers who don't have your skillz. Seek out the person who supports you at your DZ and listen only to him; he is a better source of advice than all those lower-skilled JM's, S+TA's and canopy pilots. Go big early; that maximizes the learning curve. Jump on windier days; your new canopy has mad penetration ability. And of course be safe!

(Note for all other readers - as you may have surmised, the above post is as tongue-in-cheek as the original post.)

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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You're somewhat right about the difference in speeds.

Using my alti-track I reviewed the data of my jumps under the Crossfire 2

Performing front riser 360's the canopy generates a speed of roughly 50 to 55 mph in the turn. A 180 is slightly less at 40 to 45 mph, a 90 front riser turn create a increase of speed up to 30 to 35 mph. Any turns over 180 I've done at or above 2k. I did a 90's front riser at 400+ feet.

That's your descent rate. Your total speed is much higher. I clocked 48 MPH on RADAR after plane-out from a conservative carving 90 degree turn under my Stiletto 120 at your wing loading. I had to be going faster before plane out and would have had even more speed under a wing that dives more like my Samurai or your Crossfire.

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My thinking is I can land it as if it's a student canopy straight in.

You really don't want to be jumping a canopy you have to land straight in because eventually you're going to find yourself with more speed than you expected. Maybe you'll be low after getting back from a long spot and not turn as flat as you planned to. Maybe 450 jumps of muscle memory from jumping a canopy that doesn't do much when you yank on a toggle will lead you to apply too much input when some one "cuts you off."

Jumping a bigger wing where you add speed only when conditions are right is a much better idea.

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In fact in a way it is like starting canopy flight all over again, except I have the experience of 450 jumps now.

It's like starting canopy flight all over again with the additional handicap of learned responses from those 450 jumps that will break or kill you when you apply them in the wrong place with your new parachute.

Your bigger canopy also let you get away with a _lot_ when it came to landing. If you just fly the 129 all the way to the ground it's going to stop flying at about the same speed your old canopy had in full flight. Landing like that can be less than pleasant, especially if you have a 5-10 MPH tail wind because the wind shifted directions or a down-wind landing made the most sense for other reasons.

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One thing I have noticed is doing a toggle turn causes a dive much more so than with the larger canopies so no low turns under this canopy. I have many more cautious jumps to make with this canopy. I have been flying it when close to the ground very conservatively.

You really should be comfortable starting with some speed and making 90 degree turns below roof top level. The skill is quite useful when you didn't notice landing area obstacles at altitude. It's a lot of fun too.

The problem isn't what you intentionally do (being careful and all); it's what you do unintentionally. With a few hundred jumps under a 150 (especially with a similar planform) applying the wrong learned response would be less likely. Having skipped directly from something suitable for students to far beyond the placarded maximum wingloading when ellipticals were getting common (canopies are no slower today than they were 10 years ago) makes doing the wrong thing likely.

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Do many posters who has been a member for 4 years, jumped 450 times at about 15 different dz with roughly seven hundred posts into these forums often troll? I am just looking for feedback without the bashing.

The best idea would be to put 100 jumps on a 170 and really learn to fly it. I didn't do that and could understand some one else skipping to a 150.

Before getting to the 129, you really want to put a few hundred jumps on a 150 in which you explore the full flight envelope. That would give you a wing loading where things "start to get exciting" as opposed to "the canopy has very sharp pointy teeth."

Doing that in two steps - semi elliptical (50-100 jumps on a Sabre 2) and then on a more interesting planform (100-200) would be prudent. I thought the Crossfire 109 I demoed was somewhat unresponsive; so if you're looking for more control sensitivity when you get to the second step you might look at canopies like the Katana or Samurai rather than dropping a size.

I think you're probably pulling our leg and there's only a small chance you're serious. Getting hurt sucks enough (even when your bones stay inside your skin) that I'll risk wasting my time on the off chance that you're not trolling and just don't yet know what you're getting into (it took me bruised heels which hurt to walk on for a few months to really respect small parachutes, although without 400 jumps on the previous size I'd have done a lot worse).

[darrenspooner 0]

I decided to upsize - middle-aged fat bastard!

[firstime 0]

well said Bill, are you listening jeepdiver

[xenaswampjumper 0]

I seriously doubt he is listening.........I find that big of downsize hard to believe....so "troll" did come to mind...but I have seen a lot of stupid things in my days............and it wouldn't surprise me in the least

till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates....
In skydiving, the only thing that stops you is the ground..............
PMS# 472 Muff #3863 TPM#95

[hanknotdan 0]

And I thought I was taking a chance when I went from 170 to 135 because I only did 70 jumps on a 150 as a transition. And with only 900 jumps total.

Hope you're tough and lucky.

I must admit I do appreciate anyone who gets that much humor out of Billvon.

OK you did ask for feedback without the bashing. Too late but here goes.



This is probably a terrible idea. You are saying that you are comfortable landing in optimal conditions. You haven't even seen it on a no wind day. What will you do when the set pattern requires a 5mph downwind on an LV day?

First, the change in size is crazy dramatic and probably beyond the realm of good sense. Jumping with 40% less fabric means that you have increased your wingloading by 60-70%. Either you were reasonably loaded before and now you are unreasonably loaded or you were seriously underloaded in which case you probably haven't learned good habits.

Most of the canopy instructors I have talked to recommend that you not downsize and move to elliptical in a single step. If you are set on this course, try jumping a larger crossfire 2 for a while(many, many jumps) to get a feel for some of the distinctions in flight characteristics first. Something that might be a bit more forgiving of your mistakes while your are learning the parameters of the new canopy.

Get qualified canopy coaching from someone who actually observes and evaluates you. Stating things about what kinds of turns you are doing and from heights is kind of pointless without someone watching you. I tend to do wider carving hooks instead of snap hooks that many people like. So my turns look very different from those of others on a similarly loaded stiletto. If you ask for advice from people who don't know anything about how you fly, you'll probably get what you pay for.


Lastly, think through your choice assuming that nothing goes right in your first 10 jumps on the new canopy. Packing a new rig can take a few times to figure out. Your body position is less than perfect when you pull. The spot may be long. You may have inconsistent winds. Someone may cut you off.

You are reducing your margin for error to virtually non-existent in a sport that does not forgive lightly. Making a bad shot selection in a basketball game means I don't make the shot. Making a bad selection in skydiving...

[Andy_Copland 0]

You looked like a homo under that 210 anyway.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[JeepDiver 0]

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You looked like a homo under that 210 anyway.

I have a huge penis so that keeps me pretty happy you gold digging pikey.

[Andy_Copland 0]

You can use it to wrap your huge penis up and have a posh wank.

In all seriousness i dont give a fuck what people fly, adults makes decisions, adults choose to listen to advice or not. Have fun and hope you dont get hurt under it.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Colson 0]

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I seriously doubt he is listening.....

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http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance

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