Wing Loading at 1.3

[davelepka 4]

I'm replying here to my own post (#17) and I'm going to post the PM I got from Prodiver, the guy I was responding to in post #17.

It's clear he's defending his post, and while he maintains he has done nothing wrong, as I re-visit this thread, I see that he has deleted the post in question, and several others??? Huh??

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I wasn't pushing anything on anybody. I was just saying that you downsize when you're comfortable and can handle variety of different situations with a clearheaded and positive state of mind. I am not an instructor, yet. Someday maybe. I did not say, " Hell yeah, downsize man". I do not plan on ever getting into swooping and I might even stay at my 150 and just switch to a fully elip. 150. Triathlons have AWESOME landings with a very powerful flare but it was way to sluggish. My Pilot has awesome everything with an excellent flare. I do have health insurance but I remain positive all the time, very aware and I never exceed my abilities so I dont plan on using it. I practice things I dont know at very high altitudes and away from canopy traffic and in time I will come to advance further and further in our sport. All I said at the beginning of that thread was what I did. i didn't tell him to follow my lead and anyone who would do that is a fool because we all advance differently. We, here on DZ.com, regardless of what ratings we have, should not be TELLING people we dont know and have never jumped with when to downsize and other critical aspects of the sport that only people who that person has personally jumped with should advise him/her to do. Things like freeflying techniques, RW, etc... is ok I.M.H.O because thats something they can practice on their own, high up. It wont kill them. And I am not pushing the limits. Are you kidding me. Someone with 2,000 jumps with a w/l of 2.8 is pushing the limits. You wouldn't know anything as far as my personal responsibility. You do not know me. I have lead divisions of people in Iraq, twice. You wanna talk about responsibility. I am not trying to be a dick and I fully understand where you're coming from man. I just get tired of hearing the same old lectures from people with 3000+ jumps when there is absolutely more than one way. Jump numbers do not dictate who knows how much more than somebody else in this sport. I have seen guys with 100 jumps help guys with 2 or 3000 jumps improve there flying. Everyone is different. Blue skies man and try not to freeze. Come to Hawaii where it's warm year round!!!

I'm going to resist the urge to pick this apart line by line, by my favorites have to be -

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I remain positive all the time, very aware and I never exceed my abilities

When you do exceed your abilites, it's called an accident. Nobody ever plans on having an accident.

I'm also a fan of -

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I just get tired of hearing the same old lectures from people with 3000+ jumps when there is absolutely more than one way. Jump numbers do not dictate who knows how much more than somebody else in this sport

You hear the same old lectures, because the new guys make the same old mistakes. Do you think we like to repeat the same old lectures? I don't.

In the end, you are as wrong as can be. When you're talking about a guy with 100 jumps, and a guy with 1000s of jumps, the guy with 1000s of jumps will always know more. Just surviving though 1000s of jumps, and the years it takes to make them is why they know more than the new guy.

Finally, while I do appriciate your military service, it does not make you a better canopy pilot. You will never catch me attempting to lead a division of men, advising anyone on how to lead a division of men, or anything remotely close to that.

You're a military man, have a little respect for the chain of command. I'm not saying respect me as a person, but as a canopy pilot I have the experience, skill, and expertise to speak at length, in detail, and with a very high degree of accuracy.

[prodiver913 0]

And I do appreciate you're, I guess you can call it, "rank" in our sport. You're very right. I am just trying to get across that there is more than one right way. And BTW the idea of a PM is so that it's private. I dont appreciate you posting it on the thread. Otherwise I would have wrote all that on the thread. This isn't school and i am not being graded. It was to you so I can explain myself. I have to go to the doctor now for some weird rash on my side. Have a good one man and maybe we'll jump together one day!!!

I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.

[el6uapo 0]

I have 60 jumps and I think my Spectre 230 is exciting. I weigh 195 to 200lbs so my wing loading is about 1:1 or a little less depending on my beer drinking habits. Try flying your current canopy in a decent downwind/crosswind to land. That'll tighten your butt cheeks up a little. Now imagine what it might be like to get in a tight spot with a more aggresive canopy.

I think people get themselves "cornered" early on by getting into a canopy that keeps them too conservative in a learning sense. They also get an artificially inflated sense of skill. When the poop hits the fan they can't get themselves outside of the box because they have been skill cornered by too aggresive of a canopy. It's the same idea as learn to belly fly before you freefly.

Skydiving is very forgiving until it isn't. My 2 low timer cents.

[billvon 2,400]

>But I am a Padi Rescue Scuba Diver with many specialties including
>cavern diving. I have had a few emergencies while doing "shallow" 150'
>caverns in Florida that if I did not act quickly, but most importantly with a
>clear minded, positive attitude I would be dead right now.

Good example.

Now let's say someone who has taken a resort SCUBA course, and had 15 dives to his name in blue water off Hawaii, came to you and said "so I plan to do some cave diving in a lake in Florida. I know it's dangerous, but I am a SCUBA diver, and I have a clear minded, positive attitude, so I can handle any problems under water in a cave."

What would your advice be to him?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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>But I am a Padi Rescue Scuba Diver with many specialties including
>cavern diving. I have had a few emergencies while doing "shallow" 150'
>caverns in Florida that if I did not act quickly, but most importantly with a
>clear minded, positive attitude I would be dead right now.

Good example.

Now let's say someone who has taken a resort SCUBA course, and had 15 dives to his name in blue water off Hawaii, came to you and said "so I plan to do some cave diving in a lake in Florida. I know it's dangerous, but I am a SCUBA diver, and I have a clear minded, positive attitude, so I can handle any problems under water in a cave."

What would your advice be to him?

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Dream on, kid. come back when you are ready.

[billvon 2,400]

>Dream on, kid. come back when you are ready.

Hey! Just because you have more dives doesn't mean you know everything. He might be really smart and have great skillz; you're just jealous. He'll be careful. What's so hard about a cave, anyway? It's all just water.

[sparkie 0]

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They also get an artificially inflated sense of skill. When the poop hits the fan they can't get themselves outside of the box because they have been skill cornered by too aggresive of a canopy.

exactly!

unfortunately there seems to be a trend that, around certain # of jumps, people are more at risk of doing stupid things until they really become very experienced after 1000 jumps or so.

Periodically one just gets a little too comfortable and it takes effort to keep on top of your game by self analizing. It is in these episodes that you hear people say "jump numbers arent everything"and "i'm a fast learner" ;P

I agree that jump numbers do not say everything. I now have 500 jumps, and see lower jump # guys doing the most crazy stuff....like I did when I had that little jumps.

the more i jump, the more i realize how little i knew then, and how much i learned by just jumping since then, and still i feel i know little, certainly not enough.

This is why the high jump # guys and girls keep giving the same advice. (frankly i'm amazed they even bother anymore)

But there will always be "special" people that can handle "it"

I'm just glad i have 500 now and eternal wisdom is mine.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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>Dream on, kid. come back when you are ready.

Hey! Just because you have more dives doesn't mean you know everything. He might be really smart and have great skillz; you're just jealous. He'll be careful. What's so hard about a cave, anyway? It's all just water.

Sure. And I got no diving license either.

But that about diving and not skydiving.

AFAIK there is no WL restrictions are enforced in USA on licensed skydivers.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I have been flying a Precision Aerodynamics Nitron for about 15 jumps now and love it. I am relatively new to the sport with around 100 jumps when I got the canopy(I also have a Sabre 150 for more conservative flights) but had two very experienced master riggers suggest the Nitron to me. I was about to purchase a new Nitron 150 when my rigger at the time talked me into getting a used 135 as he stated they are designed for a higher wing loading than a 150 would provide me. I am wondering whether this seems a far too aggressive canopy for someone of my skill range. I have very good canopy control, have never botched a landing, and am not intending to get into swooping any time soon. I feel comfortable under the canopy and enjoy the ride. I'd like some more opinions as I get a lot of weary reactions from people at DZs I visit. Thanks for the time and advice. Blue Skies!

To quote another thread, this guy had < 400 jumps when getting an elliptical with a 1.3-1.4 wingloading.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR6oQtWItwU

He learned the hard way how much of a handful small ellipticals can be. Oops! Fortunately if he doesn't have any complications in six months he can re-evaluate and get back in the air (after six months I still had a hole in my tibia where the bone didn't grow in)

Your 135 will be a bit twitchier than a 150 even at the same loading.

While people jump smaller parachutes these days, a 135 ellptical is no slower than when PD wouldn't sell one to some one with under 500 jumps with a 1.3 pound per square foot limit.

It's a bad idea. Not intending to swoop won't save you when you land out and turn to avoid an obstacle you didn't see at higher altitude or get back from a long spot without much altitude left for your turn back into the wind.

With 10,000 jumps, a bunch of parachute designs under his belt, and lots of experience teaching canopy flight Brian Germain knows more than you and your master rigger friends.


http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

[sparkie 0]

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I have been flying a Precision Aerodynamics Nitron for about 15 jumps now and love it. I am relatively new to the sport with around 100 jumps when I got the canopy(I also have a Sabre 150 for more conservative flights) but had two very experienced master riggers suggest the Nitron to me. I was about to purchase a new Nitron 150 when my rigger at the time talked me into getting a used 135 as he stated they are designed for a higher wing loading than a 150 would provide me. I am wondering whether this seems a far too aggressive canopy for someone of my skill range. I have very good canopy control, have never botched a landing, and am not intending to get into swooping any time soon. I feel comfortable under the canopy and enjoy the ride. I'd like some more opinions as I get a lot of weary reactions from people at DZs I visit. Thanks for the time and advice. Blue Skies!

To quote another thread, this guy had

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR6oQtWItwU

He learned the hard way how much of a handful small ellipticals can be. Oops! Fortunately if he doesn't have any complications in six months he can re-evaluate and get back in the air (after six months I still had a hole in my tibia where the bone didn't grow in)

Your 135 will be a bit twitchier than a 150 even at the same loading.

While people jump smaller parachutes these days, a 135 ellptical is no slower than when PD wouldn't sell one to some one with under 500 jumps with a 1.3 pound per square foot limit.

It's a bad idea. Not intending to swoop won't save you when you land out and turn to avoid an obstacle you didn't see at higher altitude or get back from a long spot without much altitude left for your turn back into the wind.

With 10,000 jumps, a bunch of parachute designs under his belt, and lots of experience teaching canopy flight Brian Germain knows more than you and your master rigger friends.


http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

I love the "i'm not interested in swooping anytime soon" sort of lines. I used it myself and then later hooked myself in

Also good lines are "dont worry. im just going to land it straight in, nothing fancy"

It almost never occurs to people using the lines, that they're not ready for that stuff and do it anyway.

This line works: If you have to ask...don't do it, you're not ready yet.

[billvon 2,400]

>AFAIK there is no WL restrictions are enforced in USA on licensed skydivers.

Yep. No restrictions on cave diving, either. In both cases, though, one would hope that common sense might prevail.

[gearless_chris 1]

It sounds like the rigger may have a canopy he needs to sell, I only say that because he said used 135 and not a new 135. Precision says you need to have 500 jumps minimum for W/L of 1.4 or higher, you're pretty close to that. There was a huge difference between my Nitron 170 and the Nitro 150 I demoed. It flew pretty much like the 150 Stilleto I jumped (PD recommends 500 jumps for this canopy period), but had higher front riser pressure than the Stilleto. Beezy said they are designed with short lines to make them more responsive than some of the other canopies like the Crossfire. He was considering changing the line lengths to get the longer recovery arc, but I don't think he actually did it. Just because Precision underrates their canopies doesn't mean you should load them higher. George says they rate them like that to keep people out of trouble. The Manufacturers probably know more than you do, stick with your 150 for a while.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[TLob456 0]

Well, thanks to everyone who responded to my post, even the rude and arrogant ones. I've decided to sell my 135 and look for a 150 semi-elliptical. I actually went and put my rig and gear on and weighed myself on an accurate scale and found that I've been flying at a 1.35 WL on that canopy. I guess that I've been driving a Porsche and need to go back to a Subaru. And to the post about the rigger having financial interests involved, I think that is right on the mark. Thanks again all, take care

[JohnDeere 0]

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Well, thanks to everyone who responded to my post, even the rude and arrogant ones. I've decided to sell my 135 and look for a 150 semi-elliptical. I actually went and put my rig and gear on and weighed myself on an accurate scale and found that I've been flying at a 1.35 WL on that canopy. I guess that I've been driving a Porsche and need to go back to a Subaru. And to the post about the rigger having financial interests involved, I think that is right on the mark. Thanks again all, take care

I hope you do what you are saying! BTW a rigger does not mean that it is the best advise. You dont have to have any jumps to be a rigger. Think about it. You have recived very poor advise, i hope you go against it!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[ozzy13 0]

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Well, thanks to everyone who responded to my post, even the rude and arrogant ones. I've decided to sell my 135 and look for a 150 semi-elliptical. I actually went and put my rig and gear on and weighed myself on an accurate scale and found that I've been flying at a 1.35 WL on that canopy. I guess that I've been driving a Porsche and need to go back to a Subaru. And to the post about the rigger having financial interests involved, I think that is right on the mark. Thanks again all, take care

"Any parachute 150 square feet or smaller is considered a high-performance parachute and falls into the D license guideline regardless of the wing loading."

"D license 1.4 psf maximum until demonstrated
proficiency under canopy."

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[labrys 0]

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You do not know me. I have lead divisions of people in Iraq, twice.

That strikes me as weird. In another post this guy said he was in his mid twenties. Divisions are lead by Major Generals, at least in the Army. They're huge. It doesn't add up.... maybe I'm confusing something... but I don't think I am.

Owned by Remi #?

[aresye 0]

I've been on a 1.1WL since jump 27. Every couple months I have something remind me I am not ready to downsize.

1. Botched downwind landing.
2. Trouble getting a precise flare when the winds aren't favorable. (Standing up doesn't mean it's a good flare and landing).
3. Feel aprehensive under canopy when on the first jump after a period off.
4. Botched landings on multiple occasions with thermals causing wind speed and direction changes.
5. Botched landing on first night jump.
6. New Year's Eve 2008/2009: Calm winds on the ground, but wind shear approx. 500ft AGL. Having 40-50mph winds blowing you backwards away from the DZ into complete blackness will make you appreciate the smoother descent rate, docile characteristics, and slower ground speed. I was thankful to be under a familiar canopy when landing off that night.

I say wait awhile. At least another full season of jumping. You may just have an experience waiting around the corner that will scream, "You are not ready to downsize!" It takes a long time to get familiar under canopy.

Just when you think you've got it, it surprises you!

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[mjosparky 3]

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i love reading incident reports. It teaches you. They're not negative.

Here are some for you to read. All landing fatalities.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[phoenixlpr 0]

All you need is a reader.

[markovwgti 0]

Dont get the 135....you WILL get hurt

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Dont do it....you WILL get hurt or FUCK UP

Do what?

[kelpdiver 2]

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>AFAIK there is no WL restrictions are enforced in USA on licensed skydivers.

Yep. No restrictions on cave diving, either. In both cases, though, one would hope that common sense might prevail.

There are restrictions at many caves, and often access is only granted to one group. The florida cave divers have a disdain for each other that goes well beyond any of the mildly forceful debates on wingloading here. (GUE wouldn't let a PADI Rescue Diver with a $99 cavern specialty card fill their tanks, let alone dive the site)

And many cavern/cave systems lock the deeper regions and control access to the keys. Certainly not fool proof, just as someone can get away with going to the plane with a smaller canopy even with the DZO inspecting gear at manifest.